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Old 01-06-2013, 05:33 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by dlndx View Post
All subjective as I do not feel the couple of horsepower that may be left on the table is worth the cost of dyno time on a street bike
i disagree with you on that commit,
the whole idea of doing a dyno is to get the motor to run as happy(perfect) as you can, and the ONLY way of doing so is to give it to a professional to dial in the VE's and AFR.
I am sorry but dyno's are not about the numbers.
its about a healthy running motor.
you should know this
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:13 PM   #137
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It's tough to get afr that are accurate at idle and just off idle with a wide and 02 unless things have changed since I bought mine few years ago cause of exhaust etc


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Old 01-06-2013, 06:22 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by AZ-D-ROD View Post
Does anyone make/sell metal stacks, same length as stock, that are already bored to 58? Wouldn't the metal be better than the plastic. Or is that overkill?
Vance and Hines makes alluminum stacs both 53 and 58mm but iMHO it would be overkill since they don't provide a performance improvement over the plastic ones from what I've seen around. They're also a little different in the top portion which means the bike might need to get retuned after installing them. Any change you make to the airflow tract of the engine will change the AFR in some way or another.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by flybigjet View Post
This is making me do the wacky-- I finally make a decision, and then some other tidbit comes out that messes with my mind. Repeat as required.

Bottom line. I want the bike to behave normally down low. I don't care about top end power (other than to blow the doors off my other unsuspecting V-Rod buddys), but like the idea of using the SE Stage II cams to "wake up" the motor. The bike will never see a track or drag strip. From what I've read, using the cams and the stock stacks (not interested in larger injectors, tb or boring out stacks) is the best "street" combination.

Am I completely off base here?

TIA.

R.
As I've stated before, if properly tuned the bike will not loose any performance in the lower range but gain in the mid-upper range, it'll definitely wake up the motor. Fact is, that some people tune their bikes at wide open throttle, get their highest hp numbers, print the graph and send the happy customer home, forgetting to tune the bike in the lower/mid range which is where people ride 90% of the time, thus leaving the bike poorly tuned in the 0-4,500 rpm before the cams "kick in" and giving the false impression of a lack of performance in the lower range. I state this form personal experience too since my bike ran like below 4,500 rpms the first time it came out of the dyno, took it back and it was retuned and now runs like a champ from stop to redline. The main thing here is:

1) WHO DOES THE INSTALL
2) WHO TUNES THE BIKE AFTERWARDS

Even most Harley dealers dont know crap about Vrod engines, as some members here can share and testify, including member Vrunner79 who had quite an ordeal whith his cams install/tune... Your best bet is to have it done in a dealer with previous experience on this kind of install or even better if it's a dealer that especializes on Vrods. Depending on your location some members here can suggest you some dealers.


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Originally Posted by dlndx View Post
I can only relate to you my experience. Have 09 DX,topless, SE cam kit w/ air filter, V&H comp 2/1, H-D SEPST dyno tuned with stock unequal stacks. Quite satisfied with result, idle to appx 4500 rpm felt like stock set up, above that what I noticed most over stock cams was it went to redline quicker. Tried short stacks about 1 month later, only noticeable change to me was instead of hitting hard at 4500 rpm it came on closer to 5000. All else seemed about the same. All subjective as I do not feel the couple of horsepower that may be left on the table is worth the cost of dyno time on a street bike. I will say that my involvement with motorcycles for the last 38 years ( certified H-D factory school grad, 10 years as mechanic at H-D dealership, X/L altered dragracer and builder and test pilot for more configurations of large displacement H-D engines than I care to count) gives some validity to my findings. I chose unequal length stacks as most of my riding is in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range. Try to keep in mind that reponses you get come from a wide range of variability from your conditions. Read as much as possible, look for trends and trust your judgement. Good luck.

Agree with most of what you stated. I wouldnt pay to dyno again if I had to after swapping stacs, BUT the change in behavior in the rpm range tells you something, and the only way to take advantage of that swap is to retune afterwards, otherwise you're only altering the AFR values and obviously the motor will not run properly or optimaly. People think that dynos or custom tuning are only to brag about the hp numbers squeezed but it's an empirical way to monitor how the motor is runing and how it react to different changes. My statements are from personal experience too and I'm just trying to share them that's all, I have no 50 year Harley expertise or anything but have seen the results right in front of me at the dyno and the street.

Again, regardless of the stacs used the cams are a great mod if installed and tuned properly, but IMHO and as confirmed by members here who are real experts, the unequal length stacs are for the stock unequal length exhaust, just think about Destroyers that comes with equal length stacs and it comes with equal length exhaust from the factory.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:32 PM   #139
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Guys I been asking away I need a tune badly for these cams I can't dyno this spring I have v&h comp pipe and topless n will buy what I need to match the tune thankyou


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As I stated in my PMs,I might be able to share mine but I'm not sure if it'll work since my bike has no air filter and that changes the tune completely. If a swap from a regular to a high flow filter requieres a retune, imagine the difference compared with having no filter! Also, any details on the tuner you're using? I have the old SERT, which uses different file types than the SEST
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:51 PM   #140
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Fab Is right, I did have a ordeal with the tune on my cams. the HD tech got overly cocky on tuning cams that he's never done before and after I reached out to Vreelands HD and we figured out what the problem was, the HD tech STILL wouldn't listen. All mighty HD service techs know everything and the customer knows nothing. I would do the cams again if I pick up another V-Rod but moral of the story. IF you chose to have a HD dealer install / tune them make sure they have prior experience. Don't let yours be a "test monkey"
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:42 PM   #141
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Faster I need to buy a tuner here wish there was an auto one but was thinking Harley.


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Old 01-06-2013, 08:37 PM   #142
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Faster I need to buy a tuner here wish there was an auto one but was thinking Harley.


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But you have the cams installed already and no tuner???
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:17 PM   #143
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Just bought cams here I was stage 1 last year comp pipe, topless, v&h tuner it can't do the cams.


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Old 01-07-2013, 12:09 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santeg View Post
i disagree with you on that commit,
the whole idea of doing a dyno is to get the motor to run as happy(perfect) as you can, and the ONLY way of doing so is to give it to a professional to dial in the VE's and AFR.
I am sorry but dyno's are not about the numbers.
its about a healthy running motor.
you should know this
I agree with that, as I said it was dyno tuned with the stock stacks by an experienced professional then ridden appx 1400 miles by me to ensure I was happy with all settings. The power curve on paper and the 1400 miles of no stumble, no decel pop, instant starting and smooth idling led me to decide that the only short stack gain would be a few HP at close to redline. As stated in 1st post when I tried the short stacks it raised the powerband up a bit but did nothing to make me think it would be worth another dyno session. That said it sounds to me like your saying I should do what I already did. What did I miss here?
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:32 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FABSTER View Post
Vance and Hines makes alluminum stacs both 53 and 58mm but iMHO it would be overkill since they don't provide a performance improvement over the plastic ones from what I've seen around. They're also a little different in the top portion which means the bike might need to get retuned after installing them. Any change you make to the airflow tract of the engine will change the AFR in some way or another.



As I've stated before, if properly tuned the bike will not loose any performance in the lower range but gain in the mid-upper range, it'll definitely wake up the motor. Fact is, that some people tune their bikes at wide open throttle, get their highest hp numbers, print the graph and send the happy customer home, forgetting to tune the bike in the lower/mid range which is where people ride 90% of the time, thus leaving the bike poorly tuned in the 0-4,500 rpm before the cams "kick in" and giving the false impression of a lack of performance in the lower range. I state this form personal experience too since my bike ran like below 4,500 rpms the first time it came out of the dyno, took it back and it was retuned and now runs like a champ from stop to redline. The main thing here is:

1) WHO DOES THE INSTALL
2) WHO TUNES THE BIKE AFTERWARDS

Even most Harley dealers dont know crap about Vrod engines, as some members here can share and testify, including member Vrunner79 who had quite an ordeal whith his cams install/tune... Your best bet is to have it done in a dealer with previous experience on this kind of install or even better if it's a dealer that especializes on Vrods. Depending on your location some members here can suggest you some dealers.





Agree with most of what you stated. I wouldnt pay to dyno again if I had to after swapping stacs, BUT the change in behavior in the rpm range tells you something, and the only way to take advantage of that swap is to retune afterwards, otherwise you're only altering the AFR values and obviously the motor will not run properly or optimaly. People think that dynos or custom tuning are only to brag about the hp numbers squeezed but it's an empirical way to monitor how the motor is runing and how it react to different changes. My statements are from personal experience too and I'm just trying to share them that's all, I have no 50 year Harley expertise or anything but have seen the results right in front of me at the dyno and the street.

Again, regardless of the stacs used the cams are a great mod if installed and tuned properly, but IMHO and as confirmed by members here who are real experts, the unequal length stacs are for the stock unequal length exhaust, just think about Destroyers that comes with equal length stacs and it comes with equal length exhaust from the factory.
I agree with you 100% on your experience with short stacks and how they affect powerband. I also agree that the dyno is not always used properly but I made my stack decision after dyno tune graphed dead smooth, and a months worth of riding to be sure and what I've learned here and from pro racers/tuners I was priviliged to ask a million questions of. Your experience, my experience both equally valid in that it's what we saw and relayed to help someone. Actually what was originally asked for was a tune and I totally missed that, I read it as asking for which may be better and why I precluded my answer was my experience only and just another tool to use to make his decision. Not sure if all Destroyer owners leave their stacks as supplied but yes that is the basic theory which can be changed by to many things to go over in this thread. Discussion is a good thing
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:02 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santeg View Post
i disagree with you on that commit,
the whole idea of doing a dyno is to get the motor to run as happy(perfect) as you can, and the ONLY way of doing so is to give it to a professional to dial in the VE's and AFR.
I am sorry but dyno's are not about the numbers.
its about a healthy running motor.
you should know this
I agree 100% with this statement
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:30 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by flybigjet View Post
This is making me do the wacky-- I finally make a decision, and then some other tidbit comes out that messes with my mind. Repeat as required.

Bottom line. I want the bike to behave normally down low. I don't care about top end power (other than to blow the doors off my other unsuspecting V-Rod buddys), but like the idea of using the SE Stage II cams to "wake up" the motor. The bike will never see a track or drag strip. From what I've read, using the cams and the stock stacks (not interested in larger injectors, tb or boring out stacks) is the best "street" combination.

Am I completely off base here?

TIA.

R.
What you just described is my set up. Stock stacks, cams & 2:1 exhaust. The bike runs GREAT.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:00 PM   #148
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came in late on this

Consider the shaft up grade regardless of TB size. If your working with Scott on your TB it's already there so do it before the shaft breaks. I got lucky on my destroyer and no parts went through the motor. Only had about 50 passes on factory 58MM destroyer TB when shaft failed. Scott made new shafts and hand fitted plates to my TB. Bike picked up a little after Scotts repair!
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:19 PM   #149
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If you live at higher elevations, you might consider this:

"The three main factors determining cylinder pressure are the compression ratio modified by camshaft duration and altitude. Higher altitudes lower atmospheric pressure because there is not as much air. Therefore, less air results in less compression. As a generalization, the higher the altitude the less camshaft duration is necessary. This does not apply to visiting higher altitudes as cam duration reduction is not possible without replacing the camshaft. Less duration is necessary when living and riding at higher altitudes most of the time. Increasing cylinder pressure results from more compression and less cam duration. Conversely, a decreased cylinder pressure is the result of less compression and more cam duration."

From "Donny's Unauthorized Technical Guide to Harley Davidson 1936 to Present"
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:20 AM   #150
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What se kit do I need for my 13 dx? So many models to chose from I'm lost


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