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Old 11-16-2012, 01:09 PM   #46
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I understand both sides of your debate.

To paraphrase Louis who says he would have liked a better performing bike.

To paraphrase Vambo says HD didn't have to do better from a performance perspective to sell VRODS. (NOT SURE I GOT IT RIGHT)

HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS TO BOTH OF YOU:

Would it have been more expensive to produce a 520lb bike in 2002, that is only 75lbs or 12.5% than what was released.

Would it have really been more expensive to add ram air or some other performance enhancing feature, or combination thereof, to get another 20 horses out of this engine? Why an 1130 to begin with? Why not the 1250?

If HD would have built a better VROD from the very beginning, would they have attracted more guys like me. Guys that were ready to finally give up a sport bike but did not want a 65hp bike?

In all fairness and as VAMBO as stated many times, it is a miracle we got the VROD at all. I get that, but if you are going to market, wouldn't you want a PRODUCT that appeals to as many people as possible?
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:22 PM   #47
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Yes - lots of engine finning and radiator hidden in a shroud that tries to look like a bit off one of their fat arsed baggers.

Here you go (God, can you imagine hauling all that lard around with the wheezy gutless air-cooled motor?):

That's a spitting image of rsc's Big Blue.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:48 PM   #48
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So you finally get it? Bravo!
I said nothing about the V-Max having superior handling. It's a pig on stilts.

I think this is it: in your world there are fat lazy cruisers and things with 200BHP designed to blast of the line, with the V-Rod as a compromise.

But most people throughout the world want neither. They want fast, good handling bikes, not something that looks good but is dog slow, nor something that can zap from light to light but is useless for anything else.
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:50 PM   #49
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Not true, Buell never dropped the aircooled bikes. Up until the end, they offered the Lighting, Uly and Firebolt using the Thunderstorm motor bought from HD. They added the 1125's in the R and CR.
.......
You are correct, I was only addressing the Buell race bike and Street Fighter not their utility bikes. I probably should have been more explicit.

Do you think the rest of models would have done better with 1125 engine?
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:52 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ernie82 View Post
You are correct, I was only addressing the Buell race bike and Street Fighter not their utility bikes. I probably should have been more explicit.

Do you think the rest of models would have done better with 1125 engine?
Absolutely. I own a XB9 and an 1125 and the 1125 is hands down the better of the two bikes.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:29 PM   #51
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Question

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Originally Posted by Vambo View Post
It was truly a work of art, no doubt. It still holds a bit of nostalgia for me. But like all relationships between great art and artists the best is always yet to come. Yet to be drawn or even imagined when that article was written. Yet to know the depth of imagination and creativity that HD could eventually produce. Who knew then? Who knew what paint would do, what heights the V-Rod would reach?

and then it happened:

Enter the CVO's, the SE's and those gawdamn gorgeous paint schemes.
Enter tons of chrome
Enter the choice of color
Enter the R with optional ergonomics and more nimbleness and handling on those demanding California valleys.
Enter the D with optional foot placement, the 5gl tank, tire choices
Enter more HP yet
Enter the 1250

And then it happened, enter the DX which brought it all together and saved the Revo line, saved the V-Rod from the A's eventual fate!!!!
We'll stop there. Tony, take over.

Yes, the A was a ground breaker, especially for HD. But we have all moved on, it's been 10 years. The model A is appropriately named. It is reminiscent of and will forever be linked to the famous Henry Fords model A as the beginning of what eventually became greatness!
#
Is this the short version of "WICKEDPEDIA" ?
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:53 AM   #52
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In 2002 I was happily riding a Yamaha FZ-1 that did everything extremely well. In the context of its contemporaries it was the finest motorcycle I have owned.



Then magazine articles like this one started coming out hyping this revolutionary bike from Harley-Davidson. The looks got my attention and the positive reviews set the hook.

I waited a few months for the $10,000 dealer markup that was going on to fade away, sold the FZ-1, and picked up a new V-Rod for $16995.

That I was disappointed is an understatement. I'd gone from one of the best bikes on the market (and that only cost $6100) to one I couldn't ride 90 miles without having to search for gas, but by that time my ass was so sore from the crappy seat I couldn't wait to get off it anyway.

In cross winds the solid disc wheels wouldn't let air through and, where most bikes would simply lean into the wind, I'd get blown around. If I got passed by a semi on the interstate the front end would wobble like mad.

Within months I'd put up with enough and dumped the bike at a loss.

I remember articles going into detail about how HD went to great lengths to ensure they kept the Harley traditions with the VRSCA but they clearly missed the mark. The V-Rod was ostracized by their normal customer base. Case at point: http://www.1130cc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171336

To say that the V-Rod was good enough and some kind of miracle that it was ever built is bullshit. It was and is still an overpriced, substandard motorcycle. Explaining that away because its a "cruiser" is nonsense.

Conversely, if you look at my (and a lot of other new '02 owner's complaints) weight and horsepower were not among them. It would have been great if these things had the handling to back up the engine but for me the other shortcomings made it a non-issue.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:54 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by harleynurse View Post
#
Is this the short version of "WICKEDPEDIA" ?
No but it was written for our DICKepedia.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:05 AM   #54
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How many of you use the 125 it has now????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie82 View Post
I understand both sides of your debate.

To paraphrase Louis who says he would have liked a better performing bike.

To paraphrase Vambo says HD didn't have to do better from a performance perspective to sell VRODS. (NOT SURE I GOT IT RIGHT)

HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS TO BOTH OF YOU:

Would it have been more expensive to produce a 520lb bike in 2002, that is only 75lbs or 12.5% than what was released.

Would it have really been more expensive to add ram air or some other performance enhancing feature, or combination thereof, to get another 20 horses out of this engine? Why an 1130 to begin with? Why not the 1250?

If HD would have built a better VROD from the very beginning, would they have attracted more guys like me. Guys that were ready to finally give up a sport bike but did not want a 65hp bike?
In all fairness and as VAMBO as stated many times, it is a miracle we got the VROD at all. I get that, but if you are going to market, wouldn't you want a PRODUCT that appeals to as many people as possible?
All I am saying is it is damn respectable as is. Sure a lot of us want more power eventually, in fact we all want more of everything. Guys on Busa'a eventually ask for more, that's why we have 200HP factory bikes now. My point was that the V is as advertised, built as and sold as a cruiser. In that regard, it's very competitive, In fact, tops in my book(YOU ALL bought what was advertised - PERIOD! If you're unhappy, to each his own) .
My 2nd point is that comparisons to high HP, 50 degree sports bikes is just ludicrous. Stop already.

That 520# thing is an utterly ridiculous goal for not only this bike in particular but for a "cruiser" in general, that's what a Busa weighs in at -/+, a freakin' sports bike with weight conscious designers. And you can bet your azz Ernie, that if it weighed 520 in 2002, the hair splittin' whiners would want 475# now. Kapeash, get my point? And would another 20HP really satisfy this discussion? Seriously? It's irrelevant. Real speed guys do not buy the V, and another 20 wouldn't entice them. 50-60 maybe. And again we would be listening to why didn't they do 160 instead of 140, or 170 instead of 150! How many of you use the 125 it has now???? ......exactly!

It's not exactly easy to get really big HP and reliability/durability from a V-Twin (as in factory models). The Revo is both, and also exhibits great behavior on the street thru the whole range. I'm sure there was compromises in there to reach those goals.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:59 AM   #55
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All I am saying is it is damn respectable as is. Sure a lot of us want more power eventually, in fact we all want more of everything. Guys on Busa'a eventually ask for more, that's why we have 200HP factory bikes now. My point was that the V is as advertised, built as and sold as a cruiser. In that regard, it's very competitive, In fact, tops in my book(YOU ALL bought what was advertised - PERIOD! If you're unhappy, to each his own) .
My 2nd point is that comparisons to high HP, 50 degree sports bikes is just ludicrous. Stop already.

That 520# thing is an utterly ridiculous goal for not only this bike in particular but for a "cruiser" in general, that's what a Busa weighs in at -/+, a freakin' sports bike with weight conscious designers. And you can bet your azz Ernie, that if it weighed 520 in 2002, the hair splittin' whiners would want 475# now. Kapeash, get my point? And would another 20HP really satisfy this discussion? Seriously? It's irrelevant. Real speed guys do not buy the V, and another 20 wouldn't entice them. 50-60 maybe. And again we would be listening to why didn't they do 160 instead of 140, or 170 instead of 150! How many of you use the 125 it has now???? ......exactly!

It's not exactly easy to get really big HP and reliability/durability from a V-Twin (as in factory models). The Revo is both, and also exhibits great behavior on the street thru the whole range. I'm sure there was compromises in there to reach those goals.
You've got this wrong on so many levels one hardly knows where to start...

Firstly, we are talking ten years ago, not now, when 130 BHP was quite a lot. I don't feel the need for more power or less weight than the V-Rod offers, I'm happy with it, I wanted a Harley cruiser, I'm pleasantly surprised it is not a POS. But the bike was supposed to open whole new markets (Harley already owned the expensive cruiser market). And it has failed to open whole new markets because it has never been fast enough to escape the "Harley" tag. Nobody, outside the set of people who like Harleys, even knows it exists. There's a whole world of people out there who quite like the idea of a Harley badge, but don't want to be foisted with some wheezy thing that isn't much faster than a car. If they only knew, they could have a V-Rod. But the V-Rod was not quick enough to force its way past "A new Harley" articles and into the "Comparative review of fast bikes" articles. Which is a shame, because if it were lighter and faster it could have, and then people would consider it when they want a fast bike.

Secondly, 130BHP is no trouble at all, current bikes are 125 (claimed, which is what we are talking about), and an extra 5 is easy with cam changes (at a small cost in torque). In fact 135 should have been easy.

Thirdly, getting 80lb off the chassis weight is easy, have you felt the weight of the exhaust or the rear subframe? Getting another 30lb off the unsprung weight is easy, felt the weight of the solid wheels (now replaced), Dunlop tyres (now replaced), or rotors (try some Galfers)? Porsche would have been happier to engineer the engine to be lighter, easily another 30lb there. So there you are, straight down to 520lb with no effort at all and only minimum expense. 130BHP and 520lb, no problem, which, although wildly uncompetitive now, was OK for 2001.

Had the original V-Rod been 130BHP/520lbs in 2001 (not now!), which would have been easy to achieve, Harley would have gained a whole new set of customers. It wasn't, they didn't, it largely takes sales from other Harley cruisers, very little work on it has been done over the years, we are lucky they still make it.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:40 AM   #56
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:41 AM   #57
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You've got this wrong on so many levels one hardly knows where to start...

Firstly, we are talking ten years ago, not now, when 130 BHP was quite a lot. I don't feel the need for more power or less weight than the V-Rod offers, I'm happy with it, I wanted a Harley cruiser, I'm pleasantly surprised it is not a POS. But the bike was supposed to open whole new markets (Harley already owned the expensive cruiser market). And it has failed to open whole new markets because it has never been fast enough to escape the "Harley" tag. Nobody, outside the set of people who like Harleys, even knows it exists. There's a whole world of people out there who quite like the idea of a Harley badge, but don't want to be foisted with some wheezy thing that isn't much faster than a car. If they only knew, they could have a V-Rod. But the V-Rod was not quick enough to force its way past "A new Harley" articles and into the "Comparative review of fast bikes" articles. Which is a shame, because if it were lighter and faster it could have, and then people would consider it when they want a fast bike.

Secondly, 130BHP is no trouble at all, current bikes are 125 (claimed, which is what we are talking about), and an extra 5 is easy with cam changes (at a small cost in torque). In fact 135 should have been easy.

Thirdly, getting 80lb off the chassis weight is easy, have you felt the weight of the exhaust or the rear subframe? Getting another 30lb off the unsprung weight is easy, felt the weight of the solid wheels (now replaced), Dunlop tyres (now replaced), or rotors (try some Galfers)? Porsche would have been happier to engineer the engine to be lighter, easily another 30lb there. So there you are, straight down to 520lb with no effort at all and only minimum expense. 130BHP and 520lb, no problem, which, although wildly uncompetitive now, was OK for 2001.

Had the original V-Rod been 130BHP/520lbs in 2001 (not now!), which would have been easy to achieve, Harley would have gained a whole new set of customers. It wasn't, they didn't, it largely takes sales from other Harley cruisers, very little work on it has been done over the years, we are lucky they still make it.
LOL! Louis you talk design goals and customer demographics like you were in the boardroom when the V-Rod was conceived, discussed, rehashed, shelved and reopened, and you no doubt were still in daddy's nut sack when this bike was first discussed. This bike, in one form or another, and called whatever, and progressed however thru the years in one form or another, was in Willie G's imagination since the 70's, maybe before. A lot of history, a lot of experience, a lot of thinking was done between then and now, I'm sure he and HD achieved exactly what they set out to do given unforeseen obstacles, Whether or not it pleases the Portuguese market I'm sure was on the bottom of the list.

***And yes Loius, you are correct, it was 10 years ago. And ten years a 115 HP Harley was a focking miracle. Remember all the hype? The industry was buzzing about it. A115HP cruiser which could do 11's was basically thee benchmark then, so your theory has leaks. 20 more HP would have been great but they "shocked the world" regardless.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:26 AM   #58
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In 2002 I was happily riding a Yamaha FZ-1 that did everything extremely well. In the context of its contemporaries it was the finest motorcycle I have owned.


.............................

To say that the V-Rod was good enough and some kind of miracle that it was ever built is bullshit. It was and is still an overpriced, substandard motorcycle. Explaining that away because its a "cruiser" is nonsense.

Conversely, if you look at my (and a lot of other new '02 owner's complaints) weight and horsepower were not among them. It would have been great if these things had the handling to back up the engine but for me the other shortcomings made it a non-issue.
I agree, I was also disapointed, I think we both had better rides before the VROD.

The FZ1's were great in 02 with carburetors and are much better now due to EFI.

Whatever shortcommings the bike has, VAMBO is correct, it was a miracle that the MOCO ever produced this bike. For HD it was high speed and they needed Porche's help to make it feasible.

Weight was always an issue for me. SEE NEXT POST
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:45 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Vambo View Post
All I am saying is it is damn respectable as is. Sure a lot of us want more power eventually, in fact we all want more of everything. Guys on Busa'a eventually ask for more, that's why we have 200HP factory bikes now. My point was that the V is as advertised, built as and sold as a cruiser. In that regard, it's very competitive, In fact, tops in my book(YOU ALL bought what was advertised - PERIOD! If you're unhappy, to each his own) .
My 2nd point is that comparisons to high HP, 50 degree sports bikes is just ludicrous. Stop already.

That 520# thing is an utterly ridiculous goal for not only this bike in particular but for a "cruiser" in general, that's what a Busa weighs in at -/+, a freakin' sports bike with weight conscious designers. And you can bet your azz Ernie, that if it weighed 520 in 2002, the hair splittin' whiners would want 475# now. Kapeash, get my point? And would another 20HP really satisfy this discussion? Seriously? It's irrelevant. Real speed guys do not buy the V, and another 20 wouldn't entice them. 50-60 maybe. And again we would be listening to why didn't they do 160 instead of 140, or 170 instead of 150! How many of you use the 125 it has now???? ......exactly!

It's not exactly easy to get really big HP and reliability/durability from a V-Twin (as in factory models). The Revo is both, and also exhibits great behavior on the street thru the whole range. I'm sure there was compromises in there to reach those goals.
Vambo you made some good points about human nature.

Consider this, in 02 other liter bikes & liter plus bikes were putting out more HP than the VROD and weighed less. While a tremendous departure from what Harley had ever built and released, it was great but could have been better. The fact that it wasn't is clearly reflected in our resale values before the recession.

Look at the Honda 2013 thread here on the forum, people, including myself, are voicing the same opinion about the the new CB1100F, it could have been better.

The point is criticizing the VROD's shortcomings it not an anti Harley thing, rather a simple statement of fact, no matter who makes it.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:02 AM   #60
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Vambo you made some good points about human nature.

Consider this, in 02 other liter bikes & liter plus bikes were putting out more HP than the VROD and weighed less. While a tremendous departure from what Harley had ever built and released, it was great but could have been better. The fact that it wasn't is clearly reflected in our resale values before the recession.

Look at the Honda 2013 thread here on the forum, people, including myself, are voicing the same opinion about the the new CB1100F, it could have been better.

The point is criticizing the VROD's shortcomings it not an anti Harley thing, rather a simple statement of fact, no matter who makes it.
I agree but give the new CB1100 a pass because sitting next to it on the show floor is the CB1000R. Honda doesn't expect it to be a game changer but rather a retro standard.
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