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Old 10-10-2012, 09:14 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by steveiep68 View Post
Man, i am so glad i joined this forum. With one question i have now become almost an expert on gasohol. I know if i cant find a gas station then any airport will do.
i know that ethanol is great and methanol is crap, and i now have a new pal in Thailand i have pm'd who is happy to help me with any problems.
What a great and friendly place! Thanks to everyone
Aircraft fueling stations are generally out on the flight line where private vehicles are not permitted unless the driver has specific training and two way radio comms with the tower to avoid collisions with taxiing aircraft. These stations generally require a specific credit card to access the pumps or a tech is there to do it for you. Good luck convincing him to put avgas in your bike. He is paid money not to let that happen.
The avgas in a bike or car stories usually originate with some guy having a quantity of avgas to dispose of after defueling the plane for service.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:18 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Philthy View Post
Aircraft fueling stations are generally out on the flight line where private vehicles are not permitted unless the driver has specific training and two way radio comms with the tower to avoid collisions with taxiing aircraft. These stations generally require a specific credit card to access the pumps or a tech is there to do it for you. Good luck convincing him to put avgas in your bike. He is paid money not to let that happen.
The avgas in a bike or car stories usually originate with some guy having a quantity of avgas to dispose of after defueling the plane for service.
At the Reno station, I walked into the office and notified the clerk I wanted to fill two motorcycle tanks. No sweat. Then again, I was riding with a notorious local biker. The airplane fueling station was in town limits, not at an airport. Octane was between 102 -109.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:28 PM   #33
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This is getting a little off-topic but; if you have the SERT, SEPST, or TTS MasterTune HW/SW you can record data from the serial data line and see when knock occurs and also see how ignition timing is retarded. This is an important step to perform when tuning an engine for best performance.

If your engine knocks and the knock detection circuit doesn't activate, then I'd check for proper/bad spark plugs or bad ignition coils (the knock detection circuit is in the ignition coils and the spark plugs are the sensors).
I don't want to drag the thread OT either, but there are indications of knock that show before the knock sensor will read it. For one, you will see unfounded alterations in registered AF ratio. You can also see a corresponding reduction in torque. This indication can come in very narrow pieces of the powerband rather than constant.

Back on topic: After 33 years in aviation, I not even going there ragarding the avgas. Google is your friend.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:32 PM   #34
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At the Reno station, I walked into the office and notified the clerk I wanted to fill two motorcycle tanks. No sweat. Then again, I was riding with a notorious local biker. The airplane fueling station was in town limits, not at an airport. Octane was between 102 -109.
Jax or Clay ?
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:41 PM   #35
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I've heard the pumps for fueling boats have to have alcohol free gas due to eth attracting moisture. Maybe you can get gas at a dock.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:14 PM   #36
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I think everyone's making a mountain out of a mole hill in regards to the ethanol blended gasolines. Sure, there's less heat energy in ethanol compared to gasoline, but the difference in BTUs of a 10% ethanol blend vs. straight gasoline is so insignificant it won't make much if any difference in MPG or performance. Like I mentioned earlier, I've ran tests in my bike using both fuels, and the MPG variance from tank to tank was affected by riding conditions and my aggressiveness on the throttle, not the fuel itself.
Our fuel system is nearly identical to that in a modern GM (or any other make for that matter) vehicle, and they've been driving millions of miles on E10 fuels with no problems (other than the crap fuel gauge sending units, but that's a whole 'nother story) to speak of.
Many V-Rod owners here in the US have no choice but to run ethanol blended gasoline, and their bikes perform just fine.

Just so long as the alcohol they're blending with the gasoline is ethanol, not methanol, you'll be just fine.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:20 PM   #37
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:04 AM   #38
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I think everyone's making a mountain out of a mole hill in regards to the ethanol blended gasolines. Sure, there's less heat energy in ethanol compared to gasoline, but the difference in BTUs of a 10% ethanol blend vs. straight gasoline is so insignificant it won't make much if any difference in MPG or performance. Like I mentioned earlier, I've ran tests in my bike using both fuels, and the MPG variance from tank to tank was affected by riding conditions and my aggressiveness on the throttle, not the fuel itself.
Our fuel system is nearly identical to that in a modern GM (or any other make for that matter) vehicle, and they've been driving millions of miles on E10 fuels with no problems (other than the crap fuel gauge sending units, but that's a whole 'nother story) to speak of.
Many V-Rod owners here in the US have no choice but to run ethanol blended gasoline, and their bikes perform just fine.

Just so long as the alcohol they're blending with the gasoline is ethanol, not methanol, you'll be just fine.
Yep: subjective seat of pants testing beats objective dyno testing any day.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:11 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by ELUSIVE 1 View Post
At the Reno station, I walked into the office and notified the clerk I wanted to fill two motorcycle tanks. No sweat. Then again, I was riding with a notorious local biker. The airplane fueling station was in town limits, not at an airport. Octane was between 102 -109.
I find it hard to believe that a "notorious biker" is going to pay $1.50 to $3.00 more per gallon to put 100LL AVGAS into his bike.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:40 AM   #40
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There are a couple stations local to me that sell race gass (TT 100 ULE, TT111, TT114 & TT118) at pumps, but I am in heart of local stock car country, we have numerous tracks here and the guys are always in need of fuel on the way to the track. Yeah, its $6-8 a gallon but it sure smells purty.

FYI TT100 ULE is the only race gas that is street legal, except in California (damn tree huggers).

In all honesty though, the engine will only be able to burn so much octane, so after that point the rest is just wasted money from your wallet. Plus if you cross the wrong cop and he knows what the smell is, you are in trouble, with a possible ticket, impound or have to find a trailer to get the bike home.
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:56 AM   #41
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If you use aircraft fuel, make sure it is AVGAS, not JP8 which jets run on. The bike won't run on JP8. AVGAS will foul your plugs, at least if fouls car plugs. You cannot run it in cars with catalytic converters the lead content will ruin them and its against the law. It would most likely void your emission warranty on a bike.
JP8 is an alternate for JP5 and DFM(diesel fuel marine) gas turbines(jet engine) in the navy use JP5 primarily. we use JP-5 in kerosene heaters and some small engines like generators and pumps. if you were to put JP8 of 5 you would get the same affect as just filling up at the truck stop. JP-5/8 is high refined and clean diesel with out the excess oil(lubricating capabilities)for the cylinders of a truckor car. it also has an antifreeze additive for high altitude flight to prevent ice particles from forming in the fuel lines. i am not sure what the octane levels are but with flash point of +140 it has to be pretty high. gas has an average flash point of -45 degrees F. i would never put any thing like that in my bike unless i planned on buying a new engine.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:49 PM   #42
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Yep: subjective seat of pants testing beats objective dyno testing any day.
How many times have you done dyno pulls to check MPG?
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:14 PM   #43
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How many times have you done dyno pulls to check MPG?
Actual on road gas mileage is at best anecdotal evidence; however, the simple measurement of torque at a specific throttle position is not.
What I did was take on road readings of throttle position during steady state cruise at 60, 70, 80, and 90. This clearly defined required torque output in real world conditions, and clearly identifies what cells will have an affect on mpg during steady state highway cruise. Once the basic tuning is near completion, we tweak the parameters in these particular cells for maximum mpg. Crack the throttle and I am instantly into areas of the map designed for power. What I also know is that if I need to use less than 93 octane, I WILL have to drop in a more conservative tune (which I already have).

EDIT: I won't say my highway mpg here because I already know that it will be considered BS.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:28 PM   #44
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I used to run "rocket fuel" (toluene) as an additive in my WRX and you could really notice the extra snappiness of the throttle. anyone tried it in a vrod?
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:36 PM   #45
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Toluene is a great pure petroleum octane booster, but contains less BTUs than an equal amount of gasoline, so the performance gains you were feeling in the "butt dyno" were probably from a slightly more optimized spark curve due to reduced knock retard.

I used to "dope" my fuel before a track day with toluene, and its results were inconsistent. It's been 10 years or better since I've used any, and the thought of trying it in the bike had never even crossed my mind. Most of my riding is just highway cruising with the occasional WOT blast to, um, clean out the carbon and just to show off a bit when the airheads give me too much crap.

Side topic: When I was a kid, I filled up a 3 HP Briggs & Stratton lawn mower engine with straight lacquer thinner, and I'm willing to bet it came close to doubling the power it made on gasoline. It spark knocked like crazy though, so there couldn't have been much octane in it if a 5.5:1 compression ratio and 24° total advance could make it rattle like marbles in a coffee can under load. Sure was fun though!
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