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Gas question

4K views 49 replies 21 participants last post by  steveiep68 
#1 ·
Hi, I've just read that normal unleaded gas will not be available here in Thailand from Jan, to save on pollution/enviroment. They are stopping production.

We have something called gasohol in 91 and 95 octane for quite sometime, will i need to alter anything on my 2004 A? Ive never used it. If i can avoid having to go into the motor it would be good, there are not many Harley trained techs here thats for sure. I searched for gasohol on the forum, im guessing it is some blend? There's millions of scooters here and they run on reg gas 91 which i have been using fine.
 
#3 ·
Do you know the alcohol content? Any will affect tune but if it's above 10% you must do a dyno tune to richen the mixture. Alcohol has less energy per unit so you will lean it out. So long as you don't max out the injectors, just the dyno tune is fine. Next issue will be damage caused to fuel system components from the alcohol. No need to worry though because you will have to change them anyway so you might as well ride it and see what breaks (after the tune that is). Bonus is you can bump the compression on your next build.
 
#10 ·
In the US we have up to 10% alcohol blends in our gasoline and the bikes will run on it, but won't give you as good gas mileage as they would on gas without alcohol. I haven't had any fuel system problems from it and it doesn't seem to affect power output, just gas mileage.
 
#14 ·
Up to 10% ethanol is acceptable in your bike. I've done tests, unscientific as they might be, on MPG difference between premium gasoline with 10% ethanol and straight non-ethanol, and the outcome depended more on my individual riding habits on each particular tank, than anything conclusive that one fuel affected my MPG one way or another. Some tanks of E10 delivered better MPG than straight gas, and sometimes it went the other way.
Only thing you've got to watch is methanol. Under no circumstances use a gasoline with methanol blended into it, or you'll have some serious fuel system damage.
 
#15 ·
I've pumped airplane fuel out of Reno without any changes in velocity or performance. Definitely didn't sputter or stall.
 
#17 ·
For anyone boosted higher octanes (100+) are pure gold for performance..

New gas is crap. Luckily I still have plenty of non ethanol premium available. I will refuse to use it if given the choice.

As for the OP.. sounds like a new tune is in order. Cause even if you buy a tank and fill it it's going to dry up... unless you wanted to run some 103-105 aircraft grade.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Motorcycle.com Free App
 
#19 ·
I dunno. Octane only measures resistance to detonation. There is no more energy content in 100 octane gasoline than there is in 87 octane gasoline. If your vehicle has a knock sensor, ours do, and you start to encounter knock at lower octanes, then the engine management could retard the timing and you will notice the power loss from this. On our bikes if you encounter knock it should generate a DTC and light the check engine light. I don't know if the ECM will retard timing in response to knock. I have an Audi that does. It is designed for 98 octane unleaded, which was available in Germany back in the 1980's so if you run 91 octane here you will encounter some detonation on really hot days climbing a grade. With full retardation you lose 20 horses and you do notice the power loss.

Running VP 95 octane gas solves that problem on the Audi. Yesterday I made a Death Valley run and the only gas available was 87 octane. I topped up with three gallons and used it to take me up and down two 5000 foot grades on Hwy 190 on the way to US 395 and didn't notice any drivability problems or lack of power. It wasn't super hot however.
 
#20 ·
Our bikes only have an ion sensing "pseudo knock sensor". There's no piezoelectric sensors in the block or head like an automotive application would use. They have the ability to pull timing if knock is sensed, but it's a rather crude way of doing it, and not all that effective as I've had mine ping a few times already. I don't think these ECMs have much, if any, adaptive learning capability either.
 
#21 ·
Ion sensor detected knock will pull 5* of timing for a specified period (and I'm too lazy too look it up at the moment), then put it back in, if it knocks again, it'll pull again - and so on - but I don't think it sets a code or CEL.

GM Delphi ECM's (or at least my LS2 Corvette one) have TWO timing tables. On knock detect, it switches to the "bad fuel" timing table, and won't switch back until it detects 5 gallons or more of fuel added. Common practice in performance tunes on these, is to copy the "good" table to the bad. Not a really GREAT practice, but I carried a laptop with all my tunes in the car, and could flash a tune with less timing in a jiffy if I had to.

Rick
 
#22 ·
Man, i am so glad i joined this forum. With one question i have now become almost an expert on gasohol. I know if i cant find a gas station then any airport will do.
i know that ethanol is great and methanol is crap, and i now have a new pal in Thailand i have pm'd who is happy to help me with any problems.
What a great and friendly place! Thanks to everyone
 
#31 ·
Aircraft fueling stations are generally out on the flight line where private vehicles are not permitted unless the driver has specific training and two way radio comms with the tower to avoid collisions with taxiing aircraft. These stations generally require a specific credit card to access the pumps or a tech is there to do it for you. Good luck convincing him to put avgas in your bike. He is paid money not to let that happen.
The avgas in a bike or car stories usually originate with some guy having a quantity of avgas to dispose of after defueling the plane for service.
 
#24 ·
Greatest VRod Forum

E
V
E
R...

Now you have to send us an LBFM as thanks, for us to SHARE at Midwest Thunder next year (ME FIRST OF COURSE)...

Rick
 
#28 ·
Dyno time on my 06 model showed no timing being pulled with detonation, however, that is early detonation evident from dyno data, not yet audible. I have no reason to doubt the above statements with regard to more advanced detonation. That being said, don't trust the knock sensor.
 
#29 ·
This is getting a little off-topic but; if you have the SERT, SEPST, or TTS MasterTune HW/SW you can record data from the serial data line and see when knock occurs and also see how ignition timing is retarded. This is an important step to perform when tuning an engine for best performance.

If your engine knocks and the knock detection circuit doesn't activate, then I'd check for proper/bad spark plugs or bad ignition coils (the knock detection circuit is in the ignition coils and the spark plugs are the sensors).
 
#30 ·
If you use aircraft fuel, make sure it is AVGAS, not JP8 which jets run on. The bike won't run on JP8. AVGAS will foul your plugs, at least if fouls car plugs. You cannot run it in cars with catalytic converters the lead content will ruin them and its against the law. It would most likely void your emission warranty on a bike.
 
#41 ·
JP8 is an alternate for JP5 and DFM(diesel fuel marine) gas turbines(jet engine) in the navy use JP5 primarily. we use JP-5 in kerosene heaters and some small engines like generators and pumps. if you were to put JP8 of 5 you would get the same affect as just filling up at the truck stop. JP-5/8 is high refined and clean diesel with out the excess oil(lubricating capabilities)for the cylinders of a truckor car. it also has an antifreeze additive for high altitude flight to prevent ice particles from forming in the fuel lines. i am not sure what the octane levels are but with flash point of +140 it has to be pretty high. gas has an average flash point of -45 degrees F. i would never put any thing like that in my bike unless i planned on buying a new engine.
 
#36 ·
I think everyone's making a mountain out of a mole hill in regards to the ethanol blended gasolines. Sure, there's less heat energy in ethanol compared to gasoline, but the difference in BTUs of a 10% ethanol blend vs. straight gasoline is so insignificant it won't make much if any difference in MPG or performance. Like I mentioned earlier, I've ran tests in my bike using both fuels, and the MPG variance from tank to tank was affected by riding conditions and my aggressiveness on the throttle, not the fuel itself.
Our fuel system is nearly identical to that in a modern GM (or any other make for that matter) vehicle, and they've been driving millions of miles on E10 fuels with no problems (other than the crap fuel gauge sending units, but that's a whole 'nother story) to speak of.
Many V-Rod owners here in the US have no choice but to run ethanol blended gasoline, and their bikes perform just fine.

Just so long as the alcohol they're blending with the gasoline is ethanol, not methanol, you'll be just fine.
 
#40 ·
There are a couple stations local to me that sell race gass (TT 100 ULE, TT111, TT114 & TT118) at pumps, but I am in heart of local stock car country, we have numerous tracks here and the guys are always in need of fuel on the way to the track. Yeah, its $6-8 a gallon but it sure smells purty.

FYI TT100 ULE is the only race gas that is street legal, except in California (damn tree huggers).

In all honesty though, the engine will only be able to burn so much octane, so after that point the rest is just wasted money from your wallet. Plus if you cross the wrong cop and he knows what the smell is, you are in trouble, with a possible ticket, impound or have to find a trailer to get the bike home.
 
#45 ·
Toluene is a great pure petroleum octane booster, but contains less BTUs than an equal amount of gasoline, so the performance gains you were feeling in the "butt dyno" were probably from a slightly more optimized spark curve due to reduced knock retard.

I used to "dope" my fuel before a track day with toluene, and its results were inconsistent. It's been 10 years or better since I've used any, and the thought of trying it in the bike had never even crossed my mind. Most of my riding is just highway cruising with the occasional WOT blast to, um, clean out the carbon :D and just to show off a bit when the airheads give me too much crap.

Side topic: When I was a kid, I filled up a 3 HP Briggs & Stratton lawn mower engine with straight lacquer thinner, and I'm willing to bet it came close to doubling the power it made on gasoline. It spark knocked like crazy though, so there couldn't have been much octane in it if a 5.5:1 compression ratio and 24° total advance could make it rattle like marbles in a coffee can under load. Sure was fun though!
 
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