deleted

You are correct that TTS was the author and owner of the original Race Tuner code, that's why they have the tuning files published on their website, http://www.mastertune.net/files/calibrations.asp.

I would keep an eye on that site. I'm sure if they have something coming it will be announced there first.

Is this the same TTS that does or use to do the corvette reprogramming?

I have been hearing that the electronic throttle is causing many issues...

Is this the same TTS that does or use to do the corvette reprogramming?

Yes. They are heavily into GM and Delphi tuning and have been for a while.

Ok, after some digging around I have an update on the Mastertune from TTS. (There's some information on some sister sites like hdforums.com and v-twinforums.com so you can go there to dig around if you want)

Since a lot of people are buying or have H-D tuners on order I thought I should let everyone know what's on the horizon so you can make an informed decision.

TTS was the original supplier of the SERT to Harley. That contract ended late last year. TTS retained ownership of the SERT code and has been working on an updated version to be released under the product name Mastertune.

This product is supposed to incorporate enhancements and features that TTS wanted to include in the SERT but Harley didn't want. I don't have a detailed list of what these features are but I suspect some of them will be very desirable.

IT also appears there will be an upgrade path for people who have previously purchased H-D SERT's so you can recover some of your investment, unlike the ProSERT that H-D is now selling. I have no information regarding pricing.

They are working out some final bug fixes and expect to have a product available sometime this month (April).

You can track developments on www.mastertune.net.

(FYI, drodder had posted some of this information but chose to delete the post because if a misunderstanding that I apologize for. He deserves credit for starting this thread, THANKS!)

You would need O2 sensors for this ?

You would need O2 sensors for this ?

It won't be substantially different that the last iteration of the SERT. On older bikes without closed loop ECM's nothing much changes. On new bikes with closed loop ECM's I believe this product will take better advantage of them in the tuning process.

So no, there is not provision to add O2 sensors on bikes that don't already have them.

There will be updates down the road for the older bikes. We are just trying to get everything finished up for the current production first. The updates will be free to anyone who has purchased our new product in the future. Software updates will be on our web site to be downloaded as well as any updated calibrations.

http://www.mastertune.net/files/calibrations.asp

There will be updates down the road for the older bikes. We are just trying to get everything finished up for the current production first. The updates will be free to anyone who has purchased our new product in the future. Software updates will be on our web site to be downloaded as well as any updated calibrations. .... Steve,
There are several here interested in what your company will be releasing. Especially if the software is compatible with the HD SERT interface hardware you supplied to Harley and there's a reasonably priced upgrade path.

So what's all the hype about? It sounds like a newer SERT and not much else.

It won't be substantially different that the last iteration of the SERT. On older bikes without closed loop ECM's nothing much changes. On new bikes with closed loop ECM's I believe this product will take better advantage of them in the tuning process.

So no, there is not provision to add O2 sensors on bikes that don't already have them.

I am looking forward to seeing what else they have to offer my older SERT.

So what's all the hype about? It sounds like a newer SERT and not much else.

No real hype, just another option for direct ECM manipulation without having to go through the MoCo.

No real hype, just another option for direct ECM manipulation without having to go through the MoCo.
I'm all for that.

The New product from us will have three pieces of software, MasterTune, DataMaster and V-tune. Look at all the files and you will see they are .MTx and DMx files. Every wonder why? The changes we are making are to make tuning easier and quicker. All the things we want to do (and HD didn't)will not be in the first release but a major part of them will, and with free updates down the road on the software your covered. The owners of old SERT's will be able to have there units updated to work with the new software but it will require the interface to be returned to us for updating. I do not know the cost yet so don't ask. We will be sending out Beta test software to test sites next week so if everything goes OK there the full production release will be ready once the CD's get made. The first round of software will have updates mainly for all the O2 equipped bikes. Following releases will add more for the non O2 bikes. I cannot discuss everything until the release is ready so I will keep you updated as best I can.

FINALLY!! I am so looking forward to this!

Steve

Is this a product that will require an OLD SERT to function, or will you be selling the "SERT" hardware as well for us folks that don't have a SERT (or SEPRT) yet? This sounds much preferable to a SEPRT.

VRP

You can buy a complete kit from us that requires nothing from the past or we can update the previuos product we made thaat HD sold.

Sorry to be slow to catch on, but I haven't tuned engines since before ECMs and want to play with my 2008 VRSCAW. :notworth:

This sounds like the bomb to me for O2 equipped rods and as usual, I have a question.

As we experiment with intakes and exhausts, will this system tell us or give a report to what RPM we have lean or rich?

Sorry to be slow to catch on, but I haven't tuned engines since before ECMs and want to play with my 2008 VRSCAW. :notworth:

This sounds like the bomb to me for O2 equipped rods and as usual, I have a question.

As we experiment with intakes and exhausts, will this system tell us or give a report to what RPM we have lean or rich?Not to speak for TTS, but this hardware and software works with the existing HD ECM and sensors so no, it can't determine rich or lean vs. RPM. Your '08 with O2 sensors uses narrow band Nernst or switching sensors. This technology isn't suitable for providing AFR values for tuning purposes. Check the "Daytona Twin Tec " sub forum out and look for discussions of the TSII or TSII+.

Just some clarification on sensor types and what can and can't be done.

Wide Band = Full range sensors that can read from 5:1 - 20:1 with 1% accuracy. These will cost you in the $2000 - $4000 range and are not what DTT and Innovative use. These have a very fast reaction time and can be used in rapidly changing environments.

Narrow Band = Often referred to as the VW sensors these are sensors that can read from ~10:1 to 17:1 and are an order of magnitude cheaper than a true wide band sensor. These are what DTT and Innovative use but they can be off as much as 10% if not routinely free air calibrated. These also have a fairly slow reaction time so they are not great for tuning using sweep testing or even on the road testing without a lot of sample points. These are incorrectly referred to as wide band sensors (I've been guilty of that too).

Switching Sensors = Sensors that switch on and off based on proximity to stoichiometric (14.7:1 for gas engines). These are what's used on the new ECM's and many cars for pre and post cat measurements. These have a fairly rapid response time but the range they can measure deteriorates with age so the underlying map needs to be pretty close.

Now, there is the facility to tune an '08 bike with the switching sensors but that takes some software wizardry that up till now hasn't been available. Steve Cole mentioned a software package called v-tune as part of the TTS offer that will be available soon. I don't have details but suffice it to say that this is some software wizardry that will help in tuning bikes with factory supplied O2 sensors.

Thanks guys.
Max is right about the people in this forum. Simply bodatious.

Can you elaborate on the "narrow band" o2 statement. Tuners in the auto world have been relying on these for years to make BIG HP in street cars.

Can you elaborate on the "narrow band" o2 statement. Tuners in the auto world have been relying on these for years to make BIG HP in street cars.

Not sure what you want here. Making big HP has nothing to do with how they work. I didn't say they were bad or inadequate, I just stated what their characteristics are.

I've worked with people using narrow band sensors to tune motors on an engine dyno and they work great in that controlled environment. They are especially helpful when you have a brake dyno that can hold a motor at a particular RPM long enough for them to lock on to a reading (which really isn't all that long, maybe 10 or 15 engine revolutions). And, since they are so affordable you can build 8 channel recorders and get real time numbers from every cylinder. Try building that same device with the full blown wide bands and you're talking about close to $10K.

" they are not great for tuning using sweep testing or even on the road testing without a lot of sample points".

sample points as in RPM increments? What is sweep testing? Just trying to learn :)

Sweep testing is like they do on a dynojet inertial dyno. It's where you hold the throttle and let the bike accelerate against the drum on the dyno. The bike "sweeps" through the RPM range. The software that takes the readings can measure the output of the sensor about 5 times per second but the problem is by the time the reading is taken the RPM's indicated have changed from the point at which the sensor measured. It's a very small interval but under hard acceleration you can overrun the sensor's ability to measure in real time thus inducing an error.

Example, you think you've measured 12.5:1 @ 4515 RPM but in reality that measurement was for 3970 RPM's.

By taking lots of samples at any given RPM point you can calculate the median value and get what's really happening.

OTOH, if you have a brake dyno or are cruising at a constant speed the readings and the RPM measurement are in sync so the measured value is accurate.

Don't get me wrong, the narrow band sensors are great devices, especially considering their cost, but they aren't the be all and end all of tuning technology.

Did that help?

i'll be watching this thread:popcorn

yessir!

Wide Band = Full range sensors that can read from 5:1 - 20:1 with 1% accuracy. These will cost you in the $2000 - $4000 range and are not what DTT and Innovative use. These have a very fast reaction time and can be used in rapidly changing environments.
Mark what kind of wego's are you talking about here. I'm sure there are some expensive sensors out there but the Bosch sensors that Daytona and Innovate use do a pretty good job from 5 to 20 AFR's . What am I missing here?

Dale,

I based my comments on a conversation I had with and engineer that works on EFI computers for high performance race motors. After looking at my post and the specs for the Bosch LSU4.2 Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen (UEGO) sensor it would seem that there's room for argument as to the accuracy of the Bosch sensor. I also see various specs, some saying the Bosch is only good down to about 10.3:1 and others stating ~5:1.

The more expensive sensors are really along the lines of a 4 or 5 gas analyzer and not something you would install in an exhaust system.

There's also some confusion as to the response times and I see through further research that I was wrong on that count. The fastest are actually the switching sensor (which makes sense considering they operate over such a small range) and the slowest are the full blown 4 gas sensors. The Bosch sensors have a pretty good response time considering their operating range but they tend to become sluggish with age.

The bottom line is the Bosch style sensors (call then narrow band or wide band, it makes no difference) are the best we can hope to use without breaking the bank but they are not perfect and based on the difficulty I've had and seen getting "road" tunes it takes a lot of samples to get the actual real value. The biggest PITA with the DTT stuff is the ridiculously small logging window.

A little birdie tells me that may become a non issue towards the end of this year ;)

A little birdie tells me that may become a non issue towards the end of this year ;)

Please tell me this is true, I can't believe Chris has let this HUGE shortcoming go on this long. Hopefully it will be some kind of upgrade for us existing users.

Please tell me this is true, I can't believe Chris has let this HUGE shortcoming go on this long. Hopefully it will be some kind of upgrade for us existing users.


A larger logging window would be the absolute shit, hopefully it wont be too much of a hassle to upgrade.

It's not coming from DTT but some of the DTT hardware will be reusable.

It's not coming from DTT but some of the DTT hardware will be reusable.

Strangle that little bird until it talks!!

Guys

Just to explain a little more along the lines Mark started here. Think of the engine fuel system and understand what it takes start to finish. The ECM commands the injector. The injector sprays fuel into the manifold, Intake valve opens during the injector spray time to pull the fuel into the motor. Compression stroke occurs and plug is fired, mixture burns and exhaust valve opens. Exhaust is pushed out into the pipe and to the sensor. The sensor then reads the amount of free oxygen in the exhaust and sends a signal back to the ECM. Remember it reads free oxygen not AFR so if you have exhaust leaks you got to fix them first! The ECM calculates the error and adjust the mixture. This whole procedure must occur every firing cycle, so the ECM corrects after the fact trying to slowly move the mixture back to the correct place. All of this takes time! So if you do not know the speed of the sensor, the rate the engine is changing at and the sensor location you cannot do things quickly. So any time the ECM sees things happening to quickly it ignores the O2 sensors as it knows there is not time enough to make proper decisions.

These sensors being used today will not work fast enough nor are they accurate enough to control on the fly. Maybe some day but not today and that goes for all the sensors event the $1000 one we use here in testing. The range that they are accurate over and the speed at which they respond including the circuit they are connected too all counts. Do any of you really believe a $60 sensor works as good or is as accurate as the $1000 ones? So what you must do is hold the engine steady and wait for the mixture to settle to get an accurate reading. Now as far as the accuracy of the sensors go they are all over the road map. We have tested several of the so called wide band kits and have found them to be off by over 1 full air fuel ratio! So what do you do if you do not have lab type environment and zero gas to test with?

You must take the numbers just as numbers and know that they show where your bike is on that day at that time. Does it really matter if you bike runs best at 12:1 or 14:1................. no. What matters is you find the point at which your bike works best then richen it up about .3 - .5 AFR. The reason to richen the motor after you find peak power is to keep from melting the exhaust valves and pistons over time. You do the same thing with spark. Advance it up until peak power or spark knock occurs then back it off about 2-3 degrees. These are general rules of thumb from years of tuning engines in both the motorcycle and racing world. Air cooled motors you will need to remove a little more spark than what I've said but the numbers will get you into the ball park.

We have tested several of the so called wide band kits and have found them to be off by over 1 full air fuel ratio! So what do you do if you do not have lab type environment and zero gas to test with?
Steve I have done some dyno testing using some N.D. sensors comparing readings with a Horiba 7500 5 channel Emission's bench. I haven't found them to be off more than .2 AFR and that is only around 17 to 1 or 11 to 1 AFR's at Stoich they are on the money. I agree you should err on the side of a rich mixture and conservative timing when tuning for engine longevity.

You know there more I tune my engine with the twinscan and find its limitations and the more I read about the 02 sensors etc etc. the more I realize that it maybe was not money well spent.

It seems there still is no substitute for a good tuner and an honest dyno.

It seems there still is no substitute for a good tuner and an honest dyno.
What do you think the local tuner is going to use to measure your Air Fuel Ratio ?

i agree with Dale.... I had a twin scan II+ when I had my 06 D. It worked flawlessly and I was able to make MAPS in a couple short days. Now, I am wishing I wouldn't have sold it. Rick, if you decide that you don't want it anymore, let me know....

Chris

I should make my statement read a little more clear as I think some may misunderstand it. The reading we took were with 4 of the aftermarket kits all plumbed into the same exhaust pipe along with our lab style sensors. First test was to flow Zero test gas down the pipe and zero the readings. After the zero gas was done the sensors were removed and we tested the air calibrations. Then sensors were reinstalled into the test pipe and a engine was fired up and all sensors were read. What we saw was a 1 AFR difference between the 4 meters when using the lab sensors as a base line number. So the range among 4 aftermarket units using the Bosch (VW) sensor was +/- .5 AFR for a total of 1 AFR. In my book that doesn't cut it when your looking for true numbers.

Then the units had the sensors moved to different locations to rule out position as an issue. After each sensor being placed in all locations we still had the same issue.

So they are different and not all the same but as long as you get over the fact of some magic number coming from them that you tune too they work fine. You just need to tune and find the number that works for you and your combination best as the meters do let you see the changes and that's what your after.

Ok....so the big question.


When is it going to be released?

Product has been shipped out to Beta testers and we are waiting to here the good/bad/ugly from them.

man, i wish i could have been one of them testers..... how do you get on that list?

man, i wish i could have been one of them testers..... how do you get on that list?

:them:

man, i wish i could have been one of them testers..... how do you get on that list?
Me too:deal:

Me three!!!

Just out of curiosity will the Vtune function be useful with a Twinscan setup? Or will it mainly be beneficial only with a dyno tune?

Just out of curiosity will the Vtune function be useful with a Twinscan setup? Or will it mainly be beneficial only with a dyno tune?

V-Tune, in it's current configuration only applies to newer bikes with stock O2 sensors. The Delphi ECU's current firmware only knows how to handle switching sensors so you are restricted to tuning to 14.6:1 and only in certain areas of the map. I think future versions will provide inputs for wide band monitoring but that will require a device similar to the TwinScan to combine the data.

Will modifyed units be still married to one bike ? Enquireing minds with two V-rods would like to know:)

:popcorn

Will modifyed units be still married to one bike ? Enquireing minds with two V-rods would like to know:)

By modified do you mean sending in your SERT key and having it updated to support the MasterTune software? For that I don't have an answer but I do know they will have 2 version available. One that supports 1 bike and 1 that supports 2 bikes. I don't know what the pricing difference is or whether they can modify your existing SERT key to support 2 bikes.

BTW, I imagine any upgrades or trade in program will only support the older SERT. TTS owns the rights to all the older SERT code, they always have. That's why they can offer an upgrade. The ProTuner is Harley owned code so there's nothing they can do with it.

By modified do you mean sending in your SERT key and having it updated to support the MasterTune software? For that I don't have an answer but I do know they will have 2 version available. One that supports 1 bike and 1 that supports 2 bikes. I don't know what the pricing difference is or whether they can modify your existing SERT key to support 2 bikes.

BTW, I imagine any upgrades or trade in program will only support the older SERT. TTS owns the rights to all the older SERT code, they always have. That's why they can offer an upgrade. The ProTuner is Harley owned code so there's nothing they can do with it.

The lock is easiest to avoid by changing the software code. The software is what looks to see if the key has a bike # in it. Change that line and you are golden.

The lock is easiest to avoid by changing the software code. The software is what looks to see if the key has a bike # in it. Change that line and you are golden.

Of course but what makes you thing a company that's trying to make a living selling this capability would unlock the code?

They have to maintain control over the use if their intellectual property. This isn't someone hacking into the ECU in their basement.

Mark has answered everything pretty well. The Beta testers haven't reported anything big yet mostly misspelled words and comments may not be in-depth enough, so we hope everything will go along smoothly next week. If so we can begin to finish the release up. Pricing should be out right after Beta testing is completed. There are going to be a total of 4 different part numbers. For a complete system you will need 2 parts. We have divided it up into cable kits and software/hardware kit. As Mark has let out the Software/hardware comes as a Single Bike kit or Dual Bike kit, The cables come as a USB kit or serial kit. So you purchase what you need and nothing more.

It's interesting that none of the other tuners marry their device to the bike. I can understand the strategy from a business point of view, but it still would be nice to not have to marry the 2 together.

Of course but what makes you thing a company that's trying to make a living selling this capability would unlock the code?

They have to maintain control over the use if their intellectual property. This isn't someone hacking into the ECU in their basement.

Just waiting to see how they will compare in price with the SERT and the new Pro tuner hope they are a bit cheaper since they won't be priced gouged by HD. Also will dealers and tuning shops be able to dyno these when they come out with out any other software? Or will we have to wait for them to get software in to tune them?

It's interesting that none of the other tuners marry their device to the bike. I can understand the strategy from a business point of view, but it still would be nice to not have to marry the 2 together.

Actually, most of the ECU tuners out there DO marry to a VIN. HPTuners and EFI Live for GM ECU's has always been VIN locked.

What tuners are you thinking about that aren't VIN locked?

that sounds right to me mj.

I think from what I know the stock ECM mates to the TSM and you can take both of them out of a bike and put them in another bike....

except you have to have a digi-tech to erase and download a new map with the new bikes vin #.

I was thinking more of the piggyback devices, but I know what you are saying. Two completely different things, I know.

The product comes complete with Harware and Software for whom ever purchases it. It has more information for the end user to edit. Different levels of software will have different features as some support more things than others. A Typical calibration will have the following items that can be edited



Air-Fuel Ratio

VE Front Cylinder

VE Rear Cylinder

PE Air-Fuel Ratio

Warmup Enrichment

Cranking Fuel

O2 bias

Accel Enrichment

Decel Enleanment

Spark Advance Front Cylinder

Spark Advance Rear Cylinder

PE Spark

Spark Temperature Correction

Closed Throttle Spark

Knock Retard Spark

Idle RPM

IAC Warmup Steps

IAC Crank Steps

Engine Displacement

Injectors Size Knock Control

EITMS Control

RPM Limit

Fan control (V-rod)



and more but this should give you all an idea of whats coming in Mastertune alone! Then you get DataMaster and V-tune software packages as well. You are able to upload and store the calibration that was in the bike prior to programming so you can always return it to that calibration at any time.

how much?

The product comes complete with Harware and Software for whom ever purchases it. It has more information for the end user to edit. Different levels of software will have different features as some support more things than others. A Typical calibration will have the following items that can be edited

.
.
.

and more but this should give you all an idea of whats coming in Mastertune alone! Then you get DataMaster and V-tune software packages as well. You are able to upload and store the calibration that was in the bike prior to programming so you can always return it to that calibration at any time.

I just wanted every one to make sure they read that line. This is a MAJOR big deal IMHO.

BTW, I am one of the beta testers which is why I've been making some remarks and pointing people to this thread. I agreed not to divulge any information prior to the release of the product and my word is my bond, that's why I may seem evasive.

Steve has been gracious enough to come here and post information. I can discuss anything he's already divulged but that's as far as I can go.

I can confirm that this works but there is one thing you need to know. To comply with EPA regulations the file that's saved is encrypted. You can reload it back into your bike at any time but you can't view or edit it. You also can only load it back into the bike it came from (VIN Locked). These are EPA regulations, not something imposed on us by the MoCo as so much of the SERT functionality has been in the past. TTS should provide a service to de-encrypt the file so you can use it as a baseline for additional tuning but that hasn't been finalized and that capability could be pulled at any time if the EPA gets their panties in a bunch.

TTS should provide a service to de-encrypt the file so you can use it as a baseline for additional tuning but that hasn't been finalized and that capability could be pulled at any time if the EPA gets their panties in a bunch.
That would help the majority of the first time tuners. It is a lot easier to make a few adjustments where they are needed instead of starting from scratch with a complete new calibration. I don't know how you can make any change to the calibration regardless of which calibration you start with that won't have the E.P.A's panty's in a wad.

Understand the new product allows you to use all the current .mt6 files as well as the new .mt7 files. The .mt7 files are new and are required to make some of the new features work but the older .mt6 files work just the same as they did before. So any files can still be traded just as they were before.

:popcorn

I am eager to V-Mod my pipes, but waiting for this to start shipping before deciding what fueler to purchase.

Brent

I'll have to stock up on these when you are ready.

do the ve' s have a higher value so they dont max out when tuning?

do the ve' s have a higher value so they dont max out when tuning?

No, that's more a function of the Delphi firmware than the tuning software. To get more fuel the easiest way is to increase the displacement. That will adjust the entire table up or down relative to the previous setting. You can also reduce the size of the injector so it calculates a longer pulse width but I don't think that's a linear or as stable as upping the displacement number.

Mark I know you mentioned that the stock map would be uploaded in an encrypted fashion. Is there any option for those of us who already lost our original map, ie: I already flashed my ECM with the ST and a custom map. I'm wondering how I would get my stock 08DX map.

You would most likely need to get flashed back to stock at the dealer in order to save a stocker. There is only one map stored on the ECM at a time to the best of my knowledge.

It MasterTune simply reads what's in your ECM and stores it on your PC. It's locked to your VIN so it can only be loaded back into your bike. It has no way of knowing it's what it reads is the factory stock map or something you've loaded.

What I'm going to do is have the dealer reload the ECM, capture that file, then load my MasterTune file back in. That way I have a copy of the stock program for later on down the road.

How's the Beta test coming along Steve, Mike? Any new updates or perhaps a release date?

How's the Beta test coming along Steve, Mike? Any new updates or perhaps a release date?

:them::popcorn

Beta will close first of the week if no new issues are found. So far everything is working fine from what we've been told by the testers. Currently we are working on the software testing for the internet updates. Since the software and tune files will be handled over the net we have an Auto Pilot software were finishing that will look at your PC and check our WebSite and transfer any new updates to the software. This is a feature we've want to have in there for years as that way you can check on an update whenever you feel like it and get it. No need to go buy the updates as they are included for free to the orginal software.

As far as the release date I hope it's soon but I really do not have that answer just yet.

Thanks Steve... Keep us posted. Pete

No, that's more a function of the Delphi firmware than the tuning software. To get more fuel the easiest way is to increase the displacement. That will adjust the entire table up or down relative to the previous setting. You can also reduce the size of the injector so it calculates a longer pulse width but I don't think that's a linear or as stable as upping the displacement number. We will be able to increase injector size as well?

We will be able to increase injector size as well?

Yes, everything you could do with the Race Tuner will be available in MasterTune.

Beta will close first of the week if no new issues are found. So far everything is working fine from what we've been told by the testers. Currently we are working on the software testing for the internet updates. Since the software and tune files will be handled over the net we have an Auto Pilot software were finishing that will look at your PC and check our WebSite and transfer any new updates to the software. This is a feature we've want to have in there for years as that way you can check on an update whenever you feel like it and get it. No need to go buy the updates as they are included for free to the orginal software.

As far as the release date I hope it's soon but I really do not have that answer just yet.

any updates?

I'm interested to know if the software allows compatibility with a 2 BAR MAP sensor?

The final pre-production CD's have been shipping to the Beta testers to look at. If no issues are found it will be release to production end of next week. If the CD house does as they say we will have CD's about 10 working days after that and we can begin to ship. It's getting close and the only thing we are missing at this point is cables but the cables that are out there from the SERT work just fine.

So any Idea on price yet??

They are working on that in the office at this time. I should have some pricing next week I hope. I'm from the development side of things, and worry more about form and function than the office side of things.

Great look foward to the update! Thanks for the info

Also looking forward to this. I currently use Datamaster for my F-Body so I'm really looking forward to be able to have a familiar tuning tool on my VRod.

-jt

:stilpoke:

Well like all of you I wish it was done and on the market but it's not. What I can say is that it is currently in production and I'm suppose to have prices and part numbers late next week. The system is going to be sold as 4 part numbers and divided into 2 basic kits. The software/interface will be one kit and the cables will be the second kit. The software and interface will be sold as 2 part numbers one kit that does 1 bike (like current product) and one kit that allows programming of 2 bikes. The cable kit part numbers will be 1 kit for serial port connection and 1 for USB port connection. The cables are the same as the SERT cables so no need to buy them if you already have them.

The software includes Mastertune for tuning the engine, DataMaster for logging the data and VTune for the O2 equipped bikes which allows for much faster tuning of the VE tables. It installs on the "C" drive by default and is best left that way if your on a Windows "Vista" machine.

The software includes Mastertune for tuning the engine, DataMaster for logging the data and VTune for the O2 equipped bikes which allows for much faster tuning of the VE tables. It installs on the "C" drive by default and is best left that way if your on a Windows "Vista" machine.

Why is this??

Well like all of you I wish it was done and on the market but it's not. What I can say is that it is currently in production and I'm suppose to have prices and part numbers late next week. The system is going to be sold as 4 part numbers and divided into 2 basic kits. The software/interface will be one kit and the cables will be the second kit. The software and interface will be sold as 2 part numbers one kit that does 1 bike (like current product) and one kit that allows programming of 2 bikes. The cable kit part numbers will be 1 kit for serial port connection and 1 for USB port connection. The cables are the same as the SERT cables so no need to buy them if you already have them.

The software includes Mastertune for tuning the engine, DataMaster for logging the data and VTune for the O2 equipped bikes which allows for much faster tuning of the VE tables. It installs on the "C" drive by default and is best left that way if your on a Windows "Vista" machine.

Good news Steve. I'm chomping at the bit.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm waiting to see how it pans out for everyone..I just got my PC3 map made so gonna have to wait a bit now..but we'll see.

Why is this??

Because the internet based online update feature expects to find the software in a particular place. If can certainly find the location by looking the the registry but in Vista all the security settings make it highly likely that if you put it somewhere other than it's default location the update feature will hit one of Vista's security land mines.

I was asked to inquire if there is a version of this unit that will work on a Hyabusa

Why is this??

Because "Vista" is a real pile of ****. The security that only works some of the time ties things up pretty badly. When installing the software you need to make sure that the person doing the install has admin. privileges. I do not care for Vista and it has been the major cause of problems for us. We get things to work on everything from '98 forward pretty quickly then spend as much time just to make Vista happy. Some of the things you have to do to make Vista happy don't work out well for older machines and Microsoft just says we do not support any older software/hardware any longer so your on your own, and by the way if you get it to work let us know how you did it.

I was asked to inquire if there is a version of this unit that will work on a Hyabusa

Are you aware of http://www.bikeland.info/ ?

Great news Steve, I'm chomping too.

Pete

Are you aware of http://www.bikeland.info/ ?

Thanks , I'll pass that along . I have . I find no need to fool with mine though .

We hope to begin shipping in the next couple weeks. I do not know the part numbers yet but I can give you the prices of the 2 Software Kits. I should have the cable kit prices next week.

Single Bike kit with no cables is $425.00

Dual Bike kit with no cables is $625.00

The packaging of the kits is due to begin here late next week, beginning of the following week. The office will start taking orders next Wednesday for those who would like to place an order.

What you get in the kit is the software CD and the interface. The kit uses the same cables as the original SERT used. There are 4 programs on the CD. MasterTune which is the tuning program. DataMaster which is your data logging software. V-Tune which is used for Closed loop engine Auto tuning and the TTS Updater which is used to keep all your programs up to date via the internet. The software does not include any base maps but when you run the update software it will allow you to get all the FREE maps we have on file. The software will work with all current .MT6 files that are out floating around and the new .MT7 files that have all the new added features.

2008 DBW bike .MT7 maps has the following features

Air Fuel Ratio
VE Front Cyl
VE Rear Cyl
PE Air Fuel Ratio
Warmup Enrichment
Cranking Fuel
Closed Loop Bias
Accel Enrichment
Decel Enleanment
Spark Advance Front Cyl
Spark Advance Rear Cyl
PE Spark
Spark Temperature Control
Closed Throttle Spark
Adaptive Knock Retard
Idle RPM
IAC Warmup Steps
IAC Crank to Run
Throttle Blade Control
Engine Displacement
Injector Size
Max Knock Retard
Knock Control Enable/Disable
EITMS Off/On
Rev Limit
Speedo Calibration

That is great, what about the folks that already have the SERT, what is the price to update them?

There will be an upgrade path for owners of our product that HD sold. I currently have no price on it as we are working on getting the new product shipping. Once that's going smoothly I will be able to get a price for the upgrade. Things to remember are the upgrade will not unlock the interface so it's still going to be locked to whatever bike it was used on and from what I know we will not be able to update it to a dual bike interface.

Steve,The possibility to 'store' your exsisting map is great, but...supose your ECM is flashed (mine is, and don't know even whitch download),in the former versions of your (HD)product i had to had the ECM flashed back to stock(cause not all the flashed tables could be changed by that sert),does it still needs to be flashed back..?
And...does that 'stored' map i would make from my old flash have these hidden tables included and will it have the same result if i put it back after the reflash for the time beeing...are these hidden tables included now?

Someone filled your head with miss information. All versions of the SERT that we made flashed the entire calibration area. When you backup the software does not know what's in the ECM nor does it care. All it does is make a complete copy and saves it for you. If and when you decide to put it back into the ECM it restores that exact copy into the ECM.

Someone filled your head with miss information. All versions of the SERT that we made flashed the entire calibration area. When you backup the software does not know what's in the ECM nor does it care. All it does is make a complete copy and saves it for you. If and when you decide to put it back into the ECM it restores that exact copy into the ECM.

If I'm following your logic:

I already have a SERT for my 2003 VRSCA. I am waiting for you to release the software so I can calibrate the speed sensor for my smaller wheels, and smaller drive pulley. I hate that speedo calibration thingy.

So, Since I already have a custom MAP in my ECM, from my original SERT, when I use your software, it will save my custom map as the "original" map and encrypt it. Essentially treating it like the base map. Correct?

Yes, it doesn't know any better, it's just the original base file that you asked it to save.

Someone filled your head with miss information. All versions of the SERT that we made flashed the entire calibration area. When you backup the software does not know what's in the ECM nor does it care. All it does is make a complete copy and saves it for you. If and when you decide to put it back into the ECM it restores that exact copy into the ECM.

Steve,


What he's referring to is the problem early on with the original cartridge flashes that used the old OS or base firmware. When the early SERT was applied to those bikes it assumed the current, production OS but due to the cartridge flash having written the old OS you had issues with pointers, etc.

Since Harley never really explained the situation or provided the cartridge part numbers that caused the problem we started recommending that anyone who had a cartridge flash that was upgrading to a SERT have their bikes reflashed to stock (correct OS) before they applied the SERT program. It was the only way to male 100% sure that a pre-flashed bike wouldn't run into the problem.

ANNIEZZ, like many others, probably doesn't know the basis for the initial warning and is simply working off information others have told him.

Personally, I'm going to have my bike reflashed to stock so I can have a personal copy of that program to reload when I sell / trade this bike down the road. One feature that I would welcome is an option, either programmatic or through an upgrade program, that will allow me to reflash my bike back to stock, sell that bike but retain the MasterTune then re-marry the tuner to the new bike I buy.

Personally, I'm going to have my bike reflashed to stock so I can have a personal copy of that program to reload when I sell / trade this bike down the road. One feature that I would welcome is an option, either programmatic or through an upgrade program, that will allow me to reflash my bike back to stock, sell that bike but retain the MasterTune then re-marry the tuner to the new bike I buy.

NOW THAT WOULD BE COOL. There would have to be some sort of restriction though, like once you "unmarry" from an ECM, you can never "remarry" to that ECM - which would stop abuse of this feature.

Thanks Steve and MJW for explaining that to eachother and me ,it's difficult to express my questions in a for me foreign language...this forum is great ,but i have to filter out the good answers...like for that re-flash thing...
Is there any way we could have a 'how to'on the manual/your tuner with pics like i saw for the supertuner/sert (cant find the link)

The product comes complete with an on-line help file. In that file you will find pictures and a complete write up of each function that is included with the software. If there is enough interest we could make a tuning DVD that explains how to tune a HD and why you might try certain things to make the bike run better.

Great,looking forward to see that on-line help...is it active yet?:stilpoke:

Great,looking forward to see that on-line help...is it active yet?:stilpoke:

Here's where the language barrier may be coming into play. Online help installs on your computer when you install their software. It's not "online" in the internet sense.

FYI, except for the new feature the MasterTune operates the same as the SERT so if you have the SERT users guide you have a lot of this info already.

excuse my ignorance but to tune a bike with sert or mastertune will the dyno guys need to use a specific program to tune or can anyone with the proper machines tune these.
since i live on the other side of the world where i am most use PC3

excuse my ignorance but to tune a bike with sert or mastertune will the dyno guys need to use a specific program to tune or can anyone with the proper machines tune these.
since i live on the other side of the world where i am most use PC3

The SERT and MasterTune ARE specific programs, they are not devices like the PCIII. These are programs that re-program your ECM, nothing is left behind on the bike after they are done. They do include a hardware key that is a protocol converter between your PC and the ECM on the bike.

Please read the "How things work" sticky thread in the EFI section. The SERT section applies to the MasterTune.

Here's where the language barrier may be coming into play. Online help installs on your computer when you install their software. It's not "online" in the internet sense.

FYI, except for the new feature the MasterTune operates the same as the SERT so if you have the SERT users guide you have a lot of this info already.

Thanks...i know there is a HOW TO in this forum for the SERT/supertuner ,explaining much with screen shots...if it about the same for this one than it's ok i guess...(that wase what i ment)

want to know the same Santeg...or am i allowed to install the(my)mastertune-software on his pc/system temporarly...
EDIT: i know the tuner is married to the bike by the ECM ,but is the computer married to the tuner?nahh ...cant be... my computers dont have the life expectancy of my bike/tuner..:D

The software can be installed on several computers if you like. The interface is the only things that is keyed to the bike it has been tuned on. Just make sure you keep copies of any files you make with the software so if the PC dies you still have them.

10-4 ,thanks Steve and Mark...

is this for sale yet ? and

Production orders will begin shipping in a day or 2. They are packing them up now. Orders have been being accepted for a few weeks now.

Production orders will begin shipping in a day or 2. They are packing them up now. Orders have been being accepted for a few weeks now.

Anyone get one of these yet? How are they working? I need a tuner and I'm stuck between a few models.

Is there some reason why I would use master tune over a PCIII? The PCIII is $125 cheaper.

Is there some reason why I would use master tune over a PCIII? The PCIII is $125 cheaper.

Yes, the MasterTune adjusts the ECM directly and provides a tuning program called V-Tune for '08 and newer bikes. The PCIII is a piggyback device that adjusts fueling and ignition timing after the ECM has made it's calculations.

The PCIII is very limited in what it can do, the MasterTune has virtually no limitations. You can change every relevant variable in the program including Rev limiter and speedometer calibration. The PCIII can do none of that, it can only modify the fuel injection pulse width and ignition timing.

The MasterTune and Harley Pro tuner are tuning devices. The PCIII is a band aid to throw more fuel at the motor.

Mark...I couldn't find this on the Mastertune website. Their website is a little weak. Do you know if their tuner will work on a '09 HD Big Twin?
steve

Understand the new product allows you to use all the current .mt6 files as well as the new .mt7 files. The .mt7 files are new and are required to make some of the new features work but the older .mt6 files work just the same as they did before. So any files can still be traded just as they were before.
This is interesting because I've just been told the reverse by one of your resellers. Or perhaps I misunderstood him. There's an MT6 file for the combo I have, and I was planning to import it to an MT7 file, but apparently this won't work.

Have I misunderstood something?

Mark...I couldn't find this on the Mastertune website. Their website is a little weak. Do you know if their tuner will work on a '09 HD Big Twin?
steve

This is interesting because I've just been told the reverse by one of your resellers. Or perhaps I misunderstood him. There's an MT6 file for the combo I have, and I was planning to import it to an MT7 file, but apparently this won't work.

Have I misunderstood something?

Steve,

Yes, it has been tested on '09 TC96 bikes and TTS will be maintaining model year updates so it should work on any future bikes unless Harley changes ECM suppliers (not likely)

Louis,

There is no "import" feature. What you will need to do is copy the VE, AFR and Ignition tables from the .MT6 file into a program like Excel, Close the .MT6 file, Open up the base .MT7 file and paste these values into it, update the file information fields then save it under a new name.

There is no "import" feature. What you will need to do is copy the VE, AFR and Ignition tables from the .MT6 file into a program like Excel, Close the .MT6 file, Open up the base .MT7 file and paste these values into it, update the file information fields then save it under a new name.

Yeah, that's what I've been told doesn't work.

Here's what I was told:

"Louis
Just to enlighten you....and I found out the hard way....there is a big difference between the MT7 files and the MT6 files that you can not copy/paste one to another, the calibrations are so much different it just won't run right. The TTS MT7 calibrations are much better than the SEST or even the older SERT.
Good Luck and let me know if you want a TTS Tuner in the future. "

This is critical from my PoV, and makes the difference between getting one and not... There's (apparently) a good mt6 file for the SE/K&N and the D&D, so if I can convert it to mt7 I have a good base. If not, then I'll stick with the PCIII (which is currently running on the stock bike with a zero map and not doing anything horrid...)

Louis,

Where did you get that quote from? I copied the VE values from an old .MT5 file I had for SE V-Modded pipes into the .MT7 file for my '08, leaving the ignition and AFR tables and all the other values exactly has they were in the MT& file then used the V-Tune to see how close it was and it was pretty darn close. The comment that you can't copy VE values from one to the other is BS, or simply made by someone who doesn't understand the concept of VE tables.

I don't see why you can't copy the VE tables from the .MT6 file into the .MT7 file and go from there? There's really nothing more to import.

BUT, at this time I din't think TTS has an MT7 file for the 1130cc motor. You may want to send them an email to see if they have on in the pipeline or see if they will convert your stock map file you pull off your bike into an MT7 and send it back to you. Then you could take that stock file and adjust the VE tables to match what you have in the D&D map you already have.

Louis,

Where did you get that quote from? I copied the VE values from an old .MT5 file I had for SE V-Modded pipes into the .MT7 file for my '08, leaving the ignition and AFR tables and all the other values exactly has they were in the MT& file then used the V-Tune to see how close it was and it was pretty darn close. The comment that you can't copy VE values from one to the other is BS, or simply made by someone who doesn't understand the concept of VE tables.

I don't see why you can't copy the VE tables from the .MT6 file into the .MT7 file and go from there? There's really nothing more to import.

BUT, at this time I din't think TTS has an MT7 file for the 1130cc motor. You may want to send them an email to see if they have on in the pipeline or see if they will convert your stock map file you pull off your bike into an MT7 and send it back to you. Then you could take that stock file and adjust the VE tables to match what you have in the D&D map you already have.
I shouldn't name him, because it was a private email and if he's wrong I don't want to trash his reputation. But he was recommended to me as a MasterTune expert, and, like you, he has been a beta tester for it. So one of you would appear to be wrong :D

I've emailed him your comments from the other day to see what he says. I've found a couple of plausible D&D maps for the PC3 now (although they are worrying different - I'll ask you about that later) and V-Mod will sell me one for $29, so I'll look at the three and see which is the odd man out. So I'll bung the exhaust on as soon as the gaskets turn up and see how it runs. If I'm not happy, I'll get the MasterTune and see how I do. I may end up with the MasterTune anyway, because I'm not sure the PCIII will fit under any of the fenders I want.

I shouldn't name him, because it was a private email and if he's wrong I don't want to trash his reputation. But he was recommended to me as a MasterTune expert, and, like you, he has been a beta tester for it. So one of you would appear to be wrong :D

I've emailed him your comments from the other day to see what he says. I've found a couple of plausible D&D maps for the PC3 now (although they are worrying different - I'll ask you about that later) and V-Mod will sell me one for $29, so I'll look at the three and see which is the odd man out. So I'll bung the exhaust on as soon as the gaskets turn up and see how it runs. If I'm not happy, I'll get the MasterTune and see how I do. I may end up with the MasterTune anyway, because I'm not sure the PCIII will fit under any of the fenders I want.
Belay that, I've just got a reply off him, and he says it runs MT6 fine. I think the other stuff is because he assumes I'm not very bright and plan to just block copy rather than re-fill the table, but I don't care anyway, MT6 will work for now and I can get clever later.

I'll oder it.

Belay that, I've just got a reply off him, and he says it runs MT6 fine. I think the other stuff is because he assumes I'm not very bright and plan to just block copy rather than re-fill the table, but I don't care anyway, MT6 will work for now and I can get clever later.

I'll oder it.

Glad you got it cleared up :thumb:

I'm very new to this and have purchased a brand new '06 VRSCR (yes it is Sept 14th '08). Right now it is bone stock but I do have the SE air cleaner and a Rinehart 2-1 exhaust system to install after I have a few miles on it (it only has about 8 miles on it when I go pick it up on Tues) I also plan to go topless. Now to understand this all correctly does the TTS Mastertuner software read the MT6 files or do all the values have to be copied into the file configuration that the TTS MT presently uses? I have been doing a lot of homework before buying this bike and have purchased what I am initially going to install but have not purchased a specific tuner yet. I have downloaded a number of MT6 files that would be appropriate for my configuration on the bike after everything is installed. If I were to buy a SERT from Harley but hey I can save a few bucks and get the Mastertuner(that saves the orginal config) if it works well that would be great.
Thanks in advance
Tom

SERT is no longer available from HD. That was our product that we no longer sell through HD. Mastertune replaces it and yes you can use any .MT6 files that you find out on the net or the ones people have given to us. We have not currently release the new .MT7 files for the V-rod but we are working on them. With Mastertune you get the TTS updater program which allows you the customer to receive all upgrade we make for the product. So you can run the updater once a week or once a month it's up to you. Anything we have upgraded gets downloaded and installed on your PC. We recommend that anyone who buys the product do the update once its install as the software in the package is not always the latest offering, that is why we include the updater for you to use.

Hi Steve , how long before the MT7 Files are completed for the V-Rods?Doc said you were very close to completion just before Christmas(thats when i ordered my TTS,it arrived today)Will have my bike next week and will be doing V&H Widow slip ons, K&N filter,do i use map 2008 VRSC 1250SE A/C closed loop # ZL176-000 and then fine tune in V-Tune,or should i stay stock until MT7 Files are done?Bike is 09 vrscdx nrs.

Thanks in advance
Steve

Should be on the update service next week. We have been doing the testing with Mark (mjw930) here on the board and the final setup is running in his bike for the past few weeks. So far he seems to be happy with the way it's all working.

Hi Steve , how long before the MT7 Files are completed for the V-Rods?Doc said you were very close to completion just before Christmas(thats when i ordered my TTS,it arrived today)Will have my bike next week and will be doing V&H Widow slip ons, K&N filter,do i use map 2008 VRSC 1250SE A/C closed loop # ZL176-000 and then fine tune in V-Tune,or should i stay stock until MT7 Files are done?Bike is 09 vrscdx nrs.

Thanks in advance
Steve

Should be on the update service next week. We have been doing the testing with Mark (mjw930) here on the board and the final setup is running in his bike for the past few weeks. So far he seems to be happy with the way it's all working.

Hi Steve or mjw930,my vrscdx is 09 model.Will it be ok to use the above mentioned map(zl176-000) 08 closed loop i havent got a lap top yet(will in about a month) so will not be able to v tune yet.Will not be taking it to a dyno either.As living down under i have removed the catalytic converters but have V&H widow slip ons to put on plus K&n filter(and TTS Mastertuner).But still using stock mufflers and filter until either MT7 maps are released or get an answer on the map to use.

Thanks in advance
Steve

Hi mjw930 , i just loaded the mt7 map you posted in the tts files section and it seems to be good.Is this the current map you are using or have you changed it.Currently i am running stock filter with V&H widow slip ons on my 09 DX.Also do you think that map would be ok if i put K&N filter on?

Hi mjw930 , i just loaded the mt7 map you posted in the tts files section and it seems to be good.Is this the current map you are using or have you changed it.Currently i am running stock filter with V&H widow slip ons on my 09 DX.Also do you think that map would be ok if i put K&N filter on?

The file that comes with the system is good but the one Steve will post on the update site is even better. There are some significant changes to the parts of the program you can't edit so the VE values, RPM data points and other things are not compatible with any previous version. For that reason I don't want to post the file I have since it's a beta version and I agreed to not distribute it.

Check the updates daily using the built in updater. Steve should have the new file up on the site soon.

The file that comes with the system is good but the one Steve will post on the update site is even better. There are some significant changes to the parts of the program you can't edit so the VE values, RPM data points and other things are not compatible with any previous version. For that reason I don't want to post the file I have since it's a beta version and I agreed to not distribute it.

Check the updates daily using the built in updater. Steve should have the new file up on the site soon.

Thanks for the reply mjw930,Doc said the new MT7 file from Steve will be killer so i cant wait.I am safe though to run your map until then?

Thanks for your time
Steve

Running the Map that Mark posted will be fine for you until the new one is released. I think
V-rod owners will be very happy once we get the new one out. I cannot thank Mark enough for the time he spent with me working on all the changes.

deleted

Should be on the update service next week. We have been doing the testing with Mark (mjw930) here on the board and the final setup is running in his bike for the past few weeks. So far he seems to be happy with the way it's all working.

Running the Map that Mark posted will be fine for you until the new one is released. I think
V-rod owners will be very happy once we get the new one out. I cannot thank Mark enough for the time he spent with me working on all the changes.

Is there a solid ETA for the MT7 VRod files ?

We are in the final stages of testing the new updates so if all goes well I would say sometime next week there will be the new updates ready for download.

Quote: (What we are working towards is to release the upgrades to Mastertune, DataMaster and the current calibrations by the end of next week (Feb. 6). Then after those are released I will be at the show in Ohio and I have a few days off the week after for vacation. When I return I will be working on the final versions of the 2005 - 2006 closed loop and open loop files to be released. When they are released around the end of the month we will also release the upgrade package as it will be done. After that I will begin to work on upgraded calibrations for 2001 - 2004 bikes.)


Steve i was just reading this over at HDForums,Is this when the VRod MT7 files will be updated also?Or is this week still happening?

Since it's Friday and I do not have it yet my bet would be next week on the new V-rod file, sorry it's taking a little longer than hoped.

Hi Steve,is there going to be a number of vrod MT7 files.If not what is the configuration of the file eg;slip ons;2-1 etc, k&n filter;topless etc
cheers

I have downloaded version 1.3 and new files with the updater(revisions over the past few days) , but still no v rod MT7 files?
Whats going on with that?All the big twins have plenty of MT7 files , sportsters have 3MT7 files ,V Rods dont even have 1.Come on Steve give us a progress report.Why is it taking so long?
As i've said before i dont have a lap top to V tune myself and there is now way i would take it to either of the 2 dynos in my state , i'm just wanting a map that is as close as possible for V&H Widow slip ons and K&N filter.You have said that Mark and yourself have being putting a lot of time into it and i believe you ,but how long is it going to take.Just venting a little after being told the V Rod MT7 files would be on the updater by the time the TTS tuner got delivered to me(9days), that was before Christmas Dec.22.

The V-rod files are on my desk to finish. I left Friday before I got them completed to go and be at the V-twin show in Ohio. We are with our distributor shoing product. I will be back at it in the morning when I return to get the calibrations finished and onto the update service. I hope to have all the calibrations up over then next few weeks as I will be out on vacation later this week for 4 days. So that is going to cost me just a little more in the time department. There is a very good calibration file posted here already from some of the base work we have done with MJW930. Sorry it has taken so long but we are nearing the end at least I hope so.

Hi Steve,just went for a 100mile ride through the hills using new MT7 file ZL176-002-B1.Very nice work runs like a swiss watch.I was using the map mjw had posted and that was as you say very good.Side by side i can notice a difference not huge but enough to notice.Very happy customer and well worth the wait for the new files.100miles used 1/2 a tank.Absolutely no decel pop with this file either.No flat spots and pulls hard all the way through gears.

09 DX,widow slip ons,k&n filter,US auxilliary volume(no cats)30t front sprocket (stock AU)


Cheers Steve

Glad you like it. It took longer than we had hoped but I think it was worth it to get it right. A big thanks goes to MJW930 for all his time spent testing the various changes we were making to get this to where it is today. Now all you guys that wanted to play with other modifications should be able to adjust things from these base files. It's going to take sometime but I am working on these same revisions into the earlier bike calibrations as well.