I have only tried it about ten miles now but early seat of the pants and noise test are good. It's hard to tell your not running topless by the throttle and the induction noise is much less. Looks more like swiss cheese. :)

http://www.v-rodforums.com/pics/000319.jpg

Max, is there ANY intake noise?


John

John there is some induction noise but it is much less then running topless. It does not let it echo right out the side it muffles it in the top of the air cover.

Max

I did this to my old 02 cover if I were to do it over again I think I would try just the four holes in the front and not the holes in the rear.

I was thinking of doing something similar but ONLY around the parameter where the a/f actually would pull air from.


John

John I wanted to keep the holes away from the sides, I wanted greater airflow without being able to hear the valves when I opened the throttle up. By the amount of induction noise I still get I can tell it has no restrictions like this.

Max

Originally posted by Max
I did this to my old 02 cover if I were to do it over again I think I would try just the four holes in the front and not the holes in the rear.

Max,
You may want to consider covering the back holes with some duct tape and see if that eliminates some of the noise.


John

John it is not nearly as loud as it is when you run topless. I was also concerned about water and hydrostatic lockup. I have been caught in some real terd floaters and could see if the gap was wide open at the side when the top is off that some if not a lot of water would have run through the engine. With car engines we deal with this problem all the time and when they drive through a puddle fast it can destroy an engine.

Max

Max: Been there, done that with a 944 Porsche. The rebuild cost on the 944 motor ($13500) exceeded its value (= totaled & I was very upside down). I drove through about 4" of water. The air intake is in the left front fender. If you hit the water just right.......

I would think that you would want to equal, or slightly exceed the "cross sectonal area" of the two throttles, to create the pressure of one atmosphere around the filter (I also assume that in the stock configuration, the air box is under negative pressure). So the holes cut into the cover would only need to have the equivalent area of the throttles minus the area of the existing snorkel tube.

I suppose another factor that needs to be taken into account is the height of the gap between the perforated air box cover and the V-Rod top skin. This gap would also influence the restrictiveness of the air flow into your Swiss cheese holes. If the gap is tight, more perforated holes would be needed...

Via VRSCA, having used plastigauge for years on crank and rod journals I wanted to find out how much room was underneath the cover. Using play-doh on top of the lid and installing the cover it measures just over 1/2 inch thick. So my guess is that I am not restricting any air at all and the holes are probably more then the amount required. The holes are all cut with a 2 1/8 inch hole saw so they are probably about 6 times the volume of the the throttle bodys.

As I stated earlier after making this cover I think that four holes near the front might be the best configuration. That is also the area that has the greatest distance to the air box cover.

I think John's mod, taking away most of the front, vertical section, is the best I've seen. One thing it "might" also do is pack a little air aka Ram Air where topless and Max's mods probably allow all the air it will take, i.e. no negative pressure.

Just my thoughts, I'm lazy, I run topless and love the sound ;)

Originally posted by mjw930
I think John's mod, taking away most of the front, vertical section, is the best I've seen. One thing it "might" also do is pack a little air aka Ram Air where topless and Max's mods probably allow all the air it will take, i.e. no negative pressure.

Just my thoughts, I'm lazy, I run topless and love the sound ;)

For those who didn't see my CRUDE mod Mark was referring to, here it is.

http://www.v-rodforums.com/pics/000320.jpg

I took off about 2 inches off the snout and smoothed the edges first and then cut the ugly holes.



John

John,

When you did your tune and dyno run were you topless or did you have your modified lid on. Also was your dyno done with oxygenated fuel. If so what is oxygenated fuel.

Hi Frank,
Yes, with the modded lid, and no I was running 92 octane fuel when I had the dyno tuning.


John

Did you make any runs topless? If so, did you have more or less hp?

Frank,
I didn't. I knew this how I wanted to ride the bike. I knew I didn't like the way it sounded topless, so I used my knowledge of the effect of hood scoops on my race cars and street rods. I knew that they made more power with a scoop that wide open. Having said that, I'm not convinced my set up makes MORE power than topless because there is a lot of crap in front of the intake. But I also feel VERY confident that I'm making AT LEAST as much power as running topless. Sorry I couldn't give you a definitive answer.

John

Frank,
Another thought. There is NO way my set up would make MORE power that topless on a stationary dyno! It MIGHT make more power with the potential ram air effect at speed but NO way on a dyno. Think about it.

John

You are absolutely correct. So maybe we are making more hp at speed than we are on a stationary dyno. I am sick for more hp and power! Never satisfied:diablo:

Frank, I can tell! And so am I. This proves that!

http://66.17.131.140/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=439

I will end up with a big bore kit, cams, larger throttle bodies and possible head work. I will not, however be a Guinea pig. I will put 2 + 2 together when there are proven formulas. I'll keep you posted.

John

John,

What's your thoughts on a good super charger. One that performs and LOOKS good?

Let me know when you Guys get to 182 rwhp and 164 rwtq.Then I'll go for my stage III and push the 220rwhp envelope!:diablo: It's nice to know though that the stock stuff if tuned right can make some pretty big power with a Power Adder!:icon_twis

Kaz,

What's your #'s with your current setup without juice?

we did not spend allot of time tunning it Off the Juice.I made 122 with my old setup so maybe a few hp more.I will be taking it back to the dyno when I get my seal fixed.I'm pretty sure I can make 125 rwhp with what I have on Pump Gas!!!!:diablo: I have a few trix up my sleave that I haven't told anyone about and I know it's gonna be good for 2-3 rwhp and 40mph+!:sinister:I learned it from Tripp Nobles Bike.Dr HeatenScum better not tell anyone either or ELSE! :whack:

Frank Storms given the high engine rpm of the v-rod and room limitation of the throttle bodies I would think a turbo might be much better suited for the bike. :2cents

Max

I thought I would add pics of what I finaly wound up running. Feels the same as topless maybe even better at speed but has almost no induction noise at all. Very simialar to what John did.

http://www.v-rodforums.com/pics/00516.jpg

http://www.v-rodforums.com/pics/00517.jpg

Max,

What's your thoughts on a supercharger for a V-Rod. I spoke to BPP Ernie the other day to get an update and he said they are still working on it and he hopes to have something by Daytona Bike Week. He said that it looks like over 150 RWHP and MUCH better torque on the low end.

Frank either super charging or turbo charging for long term dependability will require piston changes to get the compression down on the base line. Keep in mind what the effective compression becomes when you take a high compression engine and start stuffing air into it. If this is just a weekend toy and you can afford to spend the time and money to get the fuel right and maybe do a rebuild to change to lets say an 8:1 piston so you can crank the boost up just a little then it's probably a good way to go. In years back I did a lot of playing with NOS and turbos and loved the performance gain but I'm painfully aware of the down sides of running these type setups. If I had the money and wanted a dependable 130-150hp v-rod I would plan on the big bore kit, throttle bodies and some cams. But thats just my take on it.

Max

Max,

Thank you. In speaking with Ernie, the kit will come with low compression pistons and the boost will be around 8 or 9 if I recall. We will see how it all works out. What ever I do, it will have to be system that others have lived with and love before I do anything. My goal without engine mods is 120 RWHP. I will see if that is possible. I will see if the change from V-Modded SE's to SuperCrapps will help at all. KAZ got 122 :plause

Frank I am leaning the same way, I think the SuperTrapps two into one system with plates looks like the best way to go for a clean look and good hp from the bike. I just wish the pipes were higher.

Max

Kaz used oxygenated race fuel to get 122hp.But that was the the teclusion.Now that the race tuner is out,and tuners are getting good results with them.122hp is more conceivable now without race gas.All you need is a good tuner.

I see your running SupertrappV-5,PCIIIr,K&N Filter,topless. What are your numbers. If you had it to do again, would you go with the race tuner?

OK guys, I have some real world evidence as to the difference between running topless and running with a modified top.

Sunday we did a 200 mile ride, temperature in the upper 60's to low 70's, 2 up average speeds 60 - 70 mph. We got 41.5 mpg average.

Tuesday I made a modified cover similar to Max and John's. (see below). Today we made another 200 mile ride, temperatures in the upper 60's to low 70's, 2 up, average speeds 60 - 70 mph. We got 37.6 mpg average :(

Overall the bike felt a bit sluggish and tonight when we were coming home, I was getting pushed by a hopped up GTI so I got on it. Because it was dark I was able to really see the amount of smoke being thrown out the pipes through his headlights, it wasn't pretty.

It's obvious I need to tweak the map a little (full throttle midrange rpm needs a bit less fuel) but I was really surprised how sensitive it was between topless and a modified top both for full throttle mixture and cruise fuel economy.

Since more air + more fuel = more power I'm hesitant to re-tune the map for the modified top. It's obvious there's less air getting into the bike so I don't want to compensate and lose power. So much for the quieter running ;)

Note: the notch in the cover is to accommodate the relocated IAT, rather than try to re-attach the IAT after the cover is put on I notched it so it slips on over the IAT wire.

Another view.

Mark,
I don't want to say I told you so,but after 500+ Dyno Runs Testing EVERY FU(KING COMBO Imaginable.100's of runs down the 1/4.The Modified Top does not make as Much Power as Topless !The Bottomless with individual Filters Makes More Power then All But completely OPEN"No Filters".Thats it I'm done! John and who ever else thinks they Know Better, Be My guest anytime you would like to Race your only fooling your self!!!!
:rolleyes:

John,

It's time to take your top off and make more ponies. Beat that 11.29.;)

MJW930, Do you think that the difference you saw could have been because your modded top did not create the "ram-air" effect that the mod Max did. It looks like Max's mod would create streams of air at higher pressure comming into the box through the smaller holes in the front. Any thoughts?

Max did you notice any fuel consuption difference between topless and your top mod (i.e. like MJW930 did)?

I'm still trying to decide if I should run topless or not (I have V-Mods, PCIIIr with .020 map and SE airfilter). I'm not really all that bothered by induction noise, it's the possibility of water coming in during rain that worries me. Anybody have any experience with how big the risk of water coming in is when running topless?

A little Misting will not hurt and Might even help performance"IE. WATER INJECTION"It's when you pour a Quart or so straight into the Motor and it Hydro-locks!:eek: Then your Screwed.:hitfan:

mvrod

I am running topless and I have run in some of the worst rain possible with absolutely no problems at all. I would not let rain deter you from going topless.

A little water is no problem. It's those big gulps that take the rods out in one swift blow. Through the years I have repaired over 50 cars that got gulps of water and paid for new engines.


An example might be your running down the road beside a car that runs through a deep puddle of water and shoots a wall of water at you from the side. A single sheet of water hitting the opening at one time can easily cause hydrostatic lock up and at any speed that usually spells doom for the engine. It only has to happen once to ruin the engine.

Max

Just go topless

Originally posted by vrodvinny
Just go topless

Topless SUCKS (IMHO). I hate the intake noise.
I'm VERY satisfied with my 117.9 rwhp and 11.29 ET with this set up. Oh and Kaz, WHEN did you run with a similarly modified top?


http://www.fototime.com/CEEE7F3445BE630/orig.jpg


John

Originally posted by Ketsugo
Topless SUCKS (IMHO). I hate the intake noise.
I'm VERY satisfied with my 117.9 RWHP and 11.29 ET with this set up. Oh and Kaz, WHEN did you run with a similarly modified top?


http://www.fototime.com/CEEE7F3445BE630/orig.jpg


John

OK John,

Every time you post that pic, I think about what you say about intake noise and I tend to agree. After my rebuild I will dyno topless and with your version of the top to find out. Oh ya, Now I have the SuperTrapps. We will see.

Originally posted by Frank Storms
OK John,

Every time you post that pic, I think about what you say about intake noise and I tend to agree. After my rebuild I will dyno topless and with your version of the top to find out. Oh ya, Now I have the SuperTrapps. We will see.


Frank, it will only be fair IF you have a big ass fan blowing at the intake area. I would venture to bet with NO fan, that topless would be ever so slightly better on the dyno. I also vehemently believe that my top will dyno at least as well and probably better (slight ran-air effect) than topless.


John

John,

The place I get dynoed at has two high volume squirrel cage fans that they blow on the motor. The water cooled V-Rod does not need it so I will have them blow them at the airbox cover. By the way, why did you cut the snout?

OK, but be careful Frank. The V-Rod can idle w/o any air flow, but a bunch of HARD dyno runs?!?


John

Originally posted by Ketsugo
OK, but be careful Frank. The V-Rod can idle w/o any air flow, but a bunch of HARD dyno runs?!?


John

I'll second that, after one pull the water temp was up to 210 and that's with 2 big fans blowing into the radiator.

John,

Did you read my post about my modified top (much like yours) and the extreme rich condition it caused. Exact same tune, exact same conditions, 10% less fuel economy and black smoke under hard acceleration. Pop the top and everything's cool. There is a difference between your mod and topless whether you want to believe it or not.

I'm going to get some dynamat at the local car stereo shop and line the inside of the cover, that should kill the sound without blocking any air ;)

Mark,
I did, and I don't know what to say. My numbers are very good (IMHO). Did you shorten the snout? I did by about 2 inches and smoothed the edges with sand paper.



John

Ram air ...... cool clean air, not sucking hot air off the motor. With all this gray matter on this forum we should be able to find or make a fix.

John,

No, I didn't shorten the snout but I cut more away from the top and sides than you. By all accounts I had more surface area exposed than your mod. I too was suprised.

I don't doubt your numbers and I'm sure I could clean up the tune and make pretty good numbers on a WOT pull but what concerns me is the midrange stuff. I think it shows the sensitivity to airflow the motor has.

One thing is a fact, more air = more power at any given RPM range. Since the tune was the same the only explanation for getting poor fuel economy is that I was making less power (getting less air) and subsequently had to add more throttle to maintain speed.

Regardless, I will be taking the modified top to the dyno the next time and we'll see what the numbers tell us.

BTW, if the Dynamat works then that makes this point irrelevant since the only reason people don't like topless is the added noise.

Mark,
There was a sound engineer (I think) who was working with some special insulation on VTF or on ChopperSteves forum (I don't remember which). Anyway his results suggested that sound frequency was critical in choosing the correct dampening material. I'll search for the post as time permits.



John

Originally posted by VrodG
Ram air ...... cool clean air, not sucking hot air off the motor. With all this gray matter on this forum we should be able to find or make a fix.

I think the cover that Frank's working with from American Customs is the best effort I've seen so far to funnel more air into the system. There just isn't much room in the front the get more air in.

John,

Since Dynamat is readily available it suspect the search for the "optimal" sound shield would be an exercise in futility. Don't go out of your way looking for the articles ;)

Here's the specs on Dynamat Xtreme.

Description
Dynamat Xtreme is a patented, lightweight elastomeric butyl and aluminum constrained-layer vibrational damper. Dynamat Xtreme conforms and fuses easily to sheet metal and other hard substrates. Material performance is optimized for temperature ranges between 14°F and 140°F (-10°C to +60°C). Material can withstand temperature extremes between -65°F and +300°F (-54°C to +149°C) and is highly resistant to aging.
<< back to top

Acoustic Properties
The acoustic loss factor "n" is used as a measure of a material's ability to damp structure-borne sound by stating how much vibrational energy (in steel sheets for instance) is converted to heat rather than sound. For constructions containing several layers of damping material, the combined loss factor "n comb" is used. The theoretical maximum loss factor is 1 (no vibration). An undamped 1mm thick steel panel has a loss factor of roughly 0.001 at 200 Hz. Dynamat Xtreme applied to that panel would increase the loss factor to 0.417 @ +20°C (+68°F). Multiple layers of Dynamat Xtreme improve sound damping even more.

Hey John,

I noticed it was colder by you today then here in NY ....:sinister:

John,
The First thing I started my dyno testing on was the intake!Thats how we came up with the Throttle body Sync.:slap2: We spent maybe 4-5 hr's"50-60 runs" to come up with what worked Best and we tried them ALL!:whack: I'm still waiting to see your dyno sheet and wheelie Picture!;)

Originally posted by TBAG809
Hey John,

I noticed it was colder by you today then here in NY ....:sinister:
It was colder than I'm used to for sure. Supposed to be in the mid to low 30's tonight!


Kaz, if you don't believe my claims, that's fine with me. I have a boat load of boxes in storage and it's in there somewhere (yea divorce sucks). I'm not going to go and dig through tons of crap just to convince you!


John

Going back a little to the possibility of a big gulp of water going into the motor and causing damage while running topless, I don't know if I'm missing something, but with the air filter there, I fail to see how a big stream of water would just go in one given moment down the intake. Wouldn't the filter somewhat stop the big gush and maybe just let some of it spray through?

mvrod the filter will help to break it up but remember were not talking about a huge amount of water. Air will compress with not problem but water will not compress at all so if you get as much as two ounces down the throttle body on either side you have a bent rod or worse a broken crank with all the damage that goes along with it at speed. Now take your cover off and notice how with no top you built a if you will sink around your airfilter for it to allow water in but no way other then the engine for it to get out. Believe me I have seen it enough times to know the filter will do almost nothing to protect against it.

Max

Ok, I see.

Max, have you seen the same effect that mjw930 did with his modded top (slugish feel when compared to topless, black smoke, etc.) with your modded top?

I think that the various smaller holes in the front (like yours) make for a better air flow than the bigger holes. Did you shorten the snout also, or didn't need to?

Max is correct on the hydrolock thing. I managed to trash a 944 motor by driving through about 8" of water. The fresh air intake on that Porshe is in the fender well, and aparently I was at just the right speed. It doesn't take much. Right through the filter. The mechanic said "we don't build submarines" (with a thick German accent).
Repair cost = $13500.
Blue book on the car at that time = $12500.
Owed to bank = $21000.

I now believe in Gap insurance.

Originally posted by mvrod
Ok, I see.

Max, have you seen the same effect that mjw930 did with his modded top (slugish feel when compared to topless, black smoke, etc.) with your modded top?

I think that the various smaller holes in the front (like yours) make for a better air flow than the bigger holes. Did you shorten the snout also, or didn't need to?

I doubt that he would since his tune was done with the cover on. I could easily modify my tune to accommodate the modified cover but I choose not to, the noise doesn't bother me. I think I might have a solution for that as well. I installed some Dynamat, a sound deadening material used in car stereo installations to isolate sound and deaden the reverberation effects of things like doors and trunks, along the inside of the aluminum airbox cover. Initial tests seem to show that the intake sounds are muffled but I'll need to put a few miles on it to know for sure.

Since there's no forced air into the airbox area on the v-rod you need to provide as much area to allow it to draw air in. Smaller holes simply means less air. :2cents:

Mark,

Can you post a pic of your latest mod. Also, I am going with a fiberglass airbox cover do you think that will help also in comparison to the aluminum lid.

On the hydrostatic lock up don't get me wrong the odds are very very slim that it will happen, what I warn of is the possilbility of it. I would hate for some one to make the change then come back and report a lost engine and say that no one warned them that it was possible. Removing the rear lip of the lower part of the filter might be enough to help prevent hydrostatic lock up but it is always a chance when you have large gaps that can get direct spray from water.

Max

I just slapped the dynamat on, orientation or complete coverage isn't needed so it looks like crap. I also didn't buy the $40 roll, just the $20 for 2 10" x 10" squares and they don't cover completely. Basically it's fugly but I'll take a picture anyway and post it a little later. ;)

Mark

Originally posted by mjw930
I just slapped the dynamat on, orientation or complete coverage isn't needed so it looks like crap. I also didn't buy the $40 roll, just the $20 for 2 10" x 10" squares and they don't cover completely. Basically it's fugly but I'll take a picture anyway and post it a little later. ;)

Mark


Cheap bastard! ;)

Mark, what adhesive did you use or is the stuff sticky on one side?


John

Thats Just Adding Weight.Be a Man and Live with a Little intake Noise.You drive a 930 you gotta that stuff"Noise"!;)

Kaz,

Yes, it's a vibration damper so it does add about 1 lb to the lid. Like I said, I haven't ridden very far with it so I can't say if it works or not. I did find some stuff called Accumat that has a product for under car hoods, that seems like it might be more what I'm looking for.

BTW, I never thought the sound was bad and if this doesn't work then "oh well". The 930 has a GLH 2 chamber exhaust (no baffles, no packing, nothing) a straight pipe off the waste gate and a spring centered clutch in place of the factory rubber centered unit. Add the low restriction K&N based intake and the car is absolutely the most "mechanical" sounding machine I've ever owned short of a race car, I love it ! :)

John,

The Dynamat uses a pressure sensitive adhesive on one side. It's peel and stick.

I have read and seen a lot on this matter, thought I would ad my bit, which could be of interest to a few "V-rodders". The upper lid falls short of a volute casing of trying to maintain an even pressure drop around the parimeter of the filter assembly. This fact is born out tapered profile of the plastic filter cap assembly. Hence the reason for my mod, which accommodates the ability to maintain the requirements at the filter. Having raced both GP bikes and formula 3000 in Europe the same principles apply in trying to get as much free flowing air into the air pump (which is the engine). All that is needed now is to change the angle on the louvred side grill's by 90 degree in order to finish the affect and obtain the performance. With what I have run, prior to this mod and how the performance has improved, much stronger lower down the rev range and more power in the upper reaches.

Does anyone know of or where I can get or have made a set (pair of) chromed side louvres where the slots face towards the front of the bike.

The modification itself took no more than about an hour to complete and install.

Regards,
Graeme
La Quinta.
CA

GD,
That would work really well if you took off the Leading edge"Box Lip"then Lifted to skin like my Mod!I like the concept though.Hang in there you got potential!;)

That looks like it would be great, if you eode it on the street like that..............

GDonald386,
I just took the next step and did that to my cover. Went for a test ride, and the sound is as it should be (virtually no intake noise) and performance doesn't seem to have suffered. I won't know for sure until I go back to the track for sure though.


John

GDonald386

Definitely different from what we are used to seeing.:thumb Ernie at BPP has some side covers that you might want to try. See attached pic.

John,

Trying something NEW :eek: Does your new mod look similar to GDonald386s mod. Also if I understand you correctly, you say very little intake noise. :) Did you receive your new plastic filter cover to modify.

Frank,
My NEW setup looks virtually identical except I did away with everything in front of the two most forward side retaining clips. So the front of mine is open about another 1/2 inch all the way across the front. And still NO intake noise. Nope, I just hacked away some more on my original plastic cover.



John

John,

Can you post a pic.

John,

I was talking about this plastic filter cover.

Frank,
Here ya go. Not cleaned yet though. I wanted to make sure it worked before I made it look decent.

http://www.fototime.com/5BC41A51F41EAEE/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/E51329BF9418130/orig.jpg


Frank,
I posted these pics before I read your latest post. I doubt I will do that mod. I honestly don't think the bike needs more air than the factory K&N flows.



John

Question:

What do you think the difference will be with this mod compaired to topless? Just the noise reduction? And what about performance......better, less, equal to topless ??

John,Frank I contacted K&N about an x treme cover.The said to visit there request page.I listed in the general discussion under "xtreme lid".We all need to request it, because they said if the demand was there, they would work on iy.
here it is also:

www.knfilterchargers.com/products_needed/

Originally posted by vrodvinny
John,Frank I contacted K&N about an x treme cover.The said to visit there request page.I listed in the general discussion under "xtreme lid".We all need to request it, because they said if the demand was there, they would work on iy.
here it is also:

www.knfilterchargers.com/products_needed/

vrodvinny


Request has been sent:diablo:

Cool, we need to get K&N working on something for us v-rodders!The filter now is great, but we all want more.

I wonder if my new filters will fite under the Top.I never 'clayed' that up.can't wait to find out.That mod that Gdon,,and John made look very ram-airish.

Originally posted by CW-VRod
Question:

What do you think the difference will be with this mod compaired to topless? Just the noise reduction? And what about performance......better, less, equal to topless ??

I expect performance to be AT LEAST as good as topless and no intake noise just makes it that much better.



John

Like to see some dyno sheets on this new air box mod?

Originally posted by VrodG
Like to see some dyno sheets on this new air box mod?


My next dyno session will be with a Race Tuner. I will be getting one later this month and selling the PCIIIr. I dyno'ed 117.9 rwhp with this mod.

http://www.v-rodforums.com/pics/000320.jpg

I'll let you know as soon as I know!


John

WERE'S THE DYNO SHEET JOHN?:rolleyes:

KAZ, DID YOU READ MY POST FROM YESTERDAY????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? For your sake I truly hope you didn't!

http://66.17.131.140/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=17555#post17555

RELAX JOHN IT'S A JOKE!:hidesbehi

Well,
I didn't take it as a joke if you actually saw my post from yesterday. I don't care to go public with personal stuff but the truth is I still have open wounds from my divorce. I have a bunch of boxes in storage (unmarked) and there some memories in some of them I'm not ready to view yet. I don't know which box the dyno stuff is in and I'm not going to go through them to find it at this point in time.



John

What PCIII map are you guys running when :eck02 or with a modified top?

I have a custom map,it was tuned topless.The maps from PC are generic,meaning they are just base maps.To get the optimum performance you need to have it dyno tuned.Every bike is different.

Thats what I thought just checking if I was missing the map on the PC website.

Thanx

Vinny (and all those who have custom maps)

There are 2 sticky threads in the EFI forum for posting map files. If you're so inclined, please share your maps. Also, please list all mods as well as a dyno sheet (if you have it handy ;) )

I wish I could!This computer won't let me open up any PC map that was ever made for my bike.Keeps given me this "windows cannot open file"thing.But if it is on the PC cd I can open it.Listen to this:chopper steve emailed his map for the ST's with open cap.I was able to open that and move to the PC folder.Then I burned it on a cd,to take to the old tuner.I couldn't open it up from the cd nor could the tuner.I can't even compress it into a zip folder.Something has gotta be wrong with this Dell.

Vinny (and others) if you don't mind, post the PC map(s) in the thread that mjw930 said. I'll try to see if I can open it.

Originally posted by vrodvinny
I wish I could!This computer won't let me open up any PC map that was ever made for my bike.Keeps given me this "windows cannot open file"thing.But if it is on the PC cd I can open it.Listen to this:chopper steve emailed his map for the ST's with open cap.I was able to open that and move to the PC folder.Then I burned it on a cd,to take to the old tuner.I couldn't open it up from the cd nor could the tuner.I can't even compress it into a zip folder.Something has gotta be wrong with this Dell.


You have to tell it what program to open it with. It's VERY simple to do.

Right click on the file, then choose properties, then choose "Change". Then navigate to "Power Commander Controller Center EXE file" (search for it first so you know where it is). Click on that and check the "Always use this program to open.....". That's it!



John

In an attempt to get this :offtopic thread back on topic. :)

I should have the correct acoustic absorption mat on my doorstep by the weekend. I'll take the time to correctly install it on the inside of the airbox cover (aluminum skin) and post the results and pictures.

Here's the stuff I ordered:
http://www.scosche.com/accumat/AMT750.asp

Here's the final product. OK, so I shouldn't quit my day job ;) I had to notch out the center because there's not much clearance between the skin and the top of the air filter cover.

http://www.v-rodforums.com/mjw930/sound1.jpg

The initial tests seem promising. I haven't been able to ride it but in the garage there's a noticeable difference with the cover on.

Just to clarify something..........You are running topless and then added some soundproofing??

Yes, I'm running topless. The sound doesn't bother me that much but I can never leave well enough alone ;)

mjw930, what's the cost of that material?
Have you noticed a difference while riding?

mvrod,

I paid $34.99 + shipping. There are 2 sheets, you only need one so if someone goes in with you it's half the price.

Here's the link to where I bought it. http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90112781&sp=1&loc=111

It didn't get above 48 degrees here today so I didn't ride. (no comments please, I admit to being a fair weather biker ;)) It's supposed to get into the low 60's tomorrow so I'll at least go for a short ride to see how it sounds.

what about dust getting into the engine making these modifications or running topless?

These guys are still running the air filter, just not the air box.

I just contacted K&N as well re the lid. Hope something comes of it.

Best wishes.

Ken.
:cheers:

Thanks Ken

I took a short ride today to try out the airbox "muffler" ;)

By all accounts it works as expected. No significant intake noise at idle, full throttle acceleration or cruising. For once something worked as expected :icon_mrgr

Excellent news, thanks for the info, Mark.

Now that we have two ways to avoid the intake noise (Mark and John's mods) we need to find out which way produces more power - topless or "ram air"?

Can't wait to hear the results!

Just sent in my request as well for an xtreme lid - always good to have more options!

Craig

Originally posted by fehrc
Just sent in my request as well for an xtreme lid - always good to have more options!

Craig

Agreed. Done my part too. Then we'll have another cool thread with a gzillion views.

Keep those requests going.They will work on it.If the demand is there.

:welcome: Topless and shameless!

The rush fresh air does not bother me at all. I do notice the mechanical sound. I'm with Kaz, it's a Harley. Maybe I need to use the full face helmet less and REALLY pay attention.:eck02

I did this AND installed headers and RT yesterday with a 28t and the #16 map. The air sensor thingy is floating around in there. I fixed it with some tape for the time being. Is this why the check engine light is on?

eduarprmd
If you have just fitted the wire with out the temp probe head, the engine light will stay on, as it's not measuring intake air temp.
The engine light will illuminate if you've been playing with the EFI module, as it's letting you know that a fault was registered.
If ther is no problem, it will stop illuminating for that recorded fault after 10 starts (I think it was 10)
Best wishes mate.

Ken.

Will check! Thanks a lot.

eduarprmd the light will only stay illuminated if there is a hard current failure. If it is a history failure it will illuminate for 4 seconds after starting and if there is a serious failure the light should flash while driving.

Max

eduarprmd,

Hopefully the sensor was plugged in and working when you did the dyno tests. Without the IAT the system will not be supplying the correct amount of fuel. The Race Tuner can read and reset these codes. You should always check the codes before a dyno run and pull a data log for the dyno run.

Mark

Hopefully you won't have to go back to the dyno:(

Vinny,

I think he was planning to go back once they figure out a plan to modify the program. I think there's at least another 5 hp in those pipes, probably closer to 8 with an "on the edge" tune.

Update on the sound deadening modification to the top cover. I did 200 miles yesterday and averaged 40 mph :) The sound is as quiet as with the full, unmodified top on.

For an update here's my setup:
Topless
Custom RT map (116 hp, 81 ft lbs)
Accumat sound absorber on the Aluminum cover.

So Mark, any pics?

Originally posted by Harleyvrodguy
So Mark, any pics?

He did all runs with the top on so it was plugged. I cannot seem to get away from work for long periods of time during the day :slap2: . I'll contradict myself. I NEVER use anything but the full face helmet I guess. Gotta tell ya. Today I did go to the ATM on the V-Rod. I don't like the clickity sound but at the same time don't care enough to do anything about it except that Mark's seem like a good idea, simple and easy, also clean and trouble free it seems. I have to schedule some personalized time with the bike and the tuner. ALL tuning is to be done topless.

I just realized something. Will go downstairs and am pretty sure the light thing is MY fault. May take a while cause it is certainly funnier to laugh at myself.

PS I have good and bad things to say about the JM's depending on your likes but not yet as performance specs are not really available. If I start critizising now ALL will be clouded. Sorry posted it here as it seems everybody follows this thread and exhaust is also a big thing. These things are LOUD with the little helmet on. Jesus!

Max, oh man, thanks! Short, sweet, and oh so painful at the same time.

You meant the thingy (IAT) in the photo has, of course, to be plugged to the wire, read all posts. :rofl3: . My dominican good friend would tell me. "Ah pero que bruto." Which would mean in aborigenee translation. Oh but what a stupid, slow minded, arsehoul. I was having a stroke. I cannot believe I went through med school, passed the boards and all that hard shit. :plause, :banghead, and :chair, AND Kaz is gonna like this one :spank2: .

You know what's even better? I was SOOOO sure everything was right:rofl3: . I'm going to kill myself in a minute. Even better! I overheard the tuner telling my brother that I was very knowledgeable about the V-Rod. Even even better, I got ALL I know from V-Rods from you guys. Thanks! You make me look like a champ but a chimp is more like it on my capable hands, you know?

I just went to the garage plugged the thing and bualah:rofl3: . Magic! The light turned off. If I were MM I would have been trying to download a gzillion MB to your server. Max I hate'chu man.

It was just lying there unplugged. I'm going to the hospital and see if worst, better, or same. How come it runs so well? Will it make it richer or leaner?

are you new?UNPLUGGED!:rolleyes: Now the dam things gonna make 120rwhp!:eek: Make sure it's warmed up to 150-160 before you make and full throttle "Redline" Runs are it will cut ignition 1000 rpm early!;)

I like mine 'plugged in'http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/liebe/love-smiley-076.gif
What's the point:confused: What's that gonna do when it goes from 50* to 80*:confused: Won't that affect drivable in different weather conditions?Just for what, 1hp?

Just came back. I am new to this actually. Engine light off, jeez. Maybe a little diff above 6000 with a stronger pull. I really have no idea how that works with different weather but my weather never changes, it's always like summer. I'm also wearing the little helmet and the senses change a bit. All I know is he (the other not tuner mechanic) was trying to "invent" something so it wasn't just dangling in there and just didn't finish, sloppy huh? If it's not just dangling you can plug it.:rofl3: I agree, after testing it, plugged in is better.

John,
Any word on your extreme airfilter cap,your making?

Hi Vinny,
The more I thought about I decided against it. The K&N unit flows more air than our engines can ever need no matter what the mods are. So I see absolutely no need for a flowing top or individual filters. If K&N made one I just might get one for kicks however.


John

John,did you go to thier site and request it?A few of us here have.

So it seems the best thing is to go topless and use this sound deadening stuff. More power, less noise!

Simple. I love this forum.

Karl... Pull it off and in a couple of weeks you WON'T even notice!

I thought I would add pics of what I finaly wound up running. Feels the same as topless maybe even better at speed but has almost no induction noise at all. Very simialar to what John did.

http://www.v-rodforums.com/pics/00516.jpg

http://www.v-rodforums.com/pics/00517.jpg

Max, This mod going to be OK with 16g, SE filter and latest HD flash without any more tuning or RT etc.
I would like to do this, but don't know if I have to mod something else.

hey all you have to do on the 03 -04 vrods is buy the $3 gromit and relocate that sensor i have dont it on both of mine you have to purcahse a $54 kit on the 2002's
take the cover off its not that noisy if it is get a louder exhaust lol

you guys have got to be kidding me about running toppless as far as noise is concerned! That little tick-tick from the injectors or ant air noise is so minute it's not worth even talking about beside's trow any set of pipes and you can't hear that sewing machine run thanks terry r

After reading the different posts on Topless, which I have tried, I decided to have another look at the top. I read the article on snow mobile air boxes and was intriqued.

I thought that maybe there was a way to open it up while still keeping the noise down.

I concentrated on the front of the airbox coverer. The areas to the left and right of the intake cone. I drilled 5 holes with a 3/4 inch hole saw. Using the reinforcement ribs as a guide. I wanted a compromise between no top and maintaining the original airbox configuration.

I took a quick ride and the noise level is OK, I'll have to let you know about performance Plus or Minus :2cents:

is it possible that a drain hole be added at the bottom low point to avoid a water basin in a major downpour?

I tried 2 variations on a modified cover and found that the bike runs richer with anything on top. It's probably because my tune is right on the edge but it was very telling that even with the front opened all the way up it was starved for air. I think a lot of it is because the bike can pull air from all the way around the aluminum cover due to the gap between it and the frame. When you put on the cover it forces the air to go to the front. Since there's no ram air effect (the area in front of the cover is dead air when you ride) I think you need to expose the air filter to direct air whenever possible.

I have ridden in downpours and not a drop gets in. I don't think there's anything to worry about and I think a hole in the bottom would actually let spray up into the area more than it would drain.

[QUOTE=mjw930] I think a lot of it is because the bike can pull air from all the way around the aluminum cover due to the gap between it and the frame......... I think you need to expose the air filter to direct air whenever possible.

QUOTE]
Like this: :mrgr:

Guys,
I'm new to the forum so please be patient with me. I've been reading a lot about running topless and can definitely see it's advantages. That said, if we're getting 2hp from simply taking the lid off the box, doesn't that imply that the box is restricting the airflow? ( I know, stupid question)

We all see how the snorkel runs out of the airbox and is basically blocked off by the battery. IMHO it's a pretty lame design but probably necessary for the asthetics. Wouldn't we make MUCH more power if we could get that box pressurized? Like, modify the snorkel so that it somehow gets into clean air. Easier said than done I know.

I'm no mechanic or machinest or anything so I'm just throwing some ideas out there. Wouldn't it be cool if the snorkel were blocked off and have 2 inlets placed on the side of it? You could modify the faux tank with mini scoops on the side similar to a V-Max to capture air and pressurize that box. Or somehow run the original snorkel down above the radiator and maybe integrate a scoop on the radiator cover. It could be functional and ashetically pleasing.

Do you think you would get more power by pressurizing the box rather than just opening it up?

Like this: :mrgr:

That works :thumb: :cheers:

That works :thumb: :cheers:
Wow is the Underneath Open Too Vinny? :eek: That Looks Like a Fantastic Setup were did you get it? :rolleyes: ;) :kaz:

Wow is the Underneath Open Too Vinny? :eek: That Looks Like a Fantastic Setup were did you get it? :rolleyes: ;) :kaz:
Looks familar doesn't it? ;) :D :cheers: It is a HP gainer for sure.Cheap,cheap HP.thanks again Kaz

[QUOTE=mjw930] I think a lot of it is because the bike can pull air from all the way around the aluminum cover due to the gap between it and the frame......... I think you need to expose the air filter to direct air whenever possible.

QUOTE]
Like this: :mrgr:

Would some stainless steel mesh around the gap improve appearance perhaps?

Looks familar doesn't it? ;) :D :cheers: It is a HP gainer for sure.Cheap,cheap HP.thanks again Kaz
Vinny,
if they only new! :twisted: Tell'm what a Nice Guy I am if Your Nice To me! ;)

Vinny,
if they only new! :twisted: Tell'm what a Nice Guy I am if Your Nice To me! ;)
If your v-rod doesn't make enough HP for you.Then you need to talk to this man>SUPERKAZ<
Everything we have discussed has given me a boost in performance.
He is a pioneer in the art of V-ROD performance.He has tried just about everything.He is good friends with a bunch of the top V-rod racers in the country.Go and do a search on Kaz here and at the VTF.He won't give you any :bs: He'll tell you what works and doesn't.

For those curious about my dual filter set/up, that is gonna be when I get to the dyno,and he gets it tuned with what I have.Then he will do a comparision between the two setups.And others. ;)

If your v-rod doesn't make enough HP for you.Then you need to take to this man>SUPERKAZ<
Everything we have discussed has given me a boost in performance.
He is a pioneer in the art of V-ROD performance.He has tried just about everything.He is good friends with a bunch of the top V-rod racers in the country.Go and do a search on Kaz here and at the VTF.He won't give you any :bs: He'll tell you what works and doesn't.

For those curious about my dual filter set/up, that is gonna be when I get to the dyno,and he gets it tuned with what I have.Then he will do a comparision between the two setups.And others. ;)
Your check is in the Mail! :D ;)

Update on the sound deadening modification to the top cover. I did 200 miles yesterday and averaged 40 mph :) The sound is as quiet as with the full, unmodified top on.

For an update here's my setup:
Topless
Custom RT map (116 hp, 81 ft lbs)
Accumat sound absorber on the Aluminum cover.

Hey Mark, it's been a while now so I thought I'd see how the Accumat was holding up and if you still like it or not? I would like to explore this option and therefore was just looking for some feedback.

Thanks.

No problems what so ever. It takes the Florida heat without a bit of deterioration. Heck, I've almost forgot it's in there.......

Good to hear, thanks Mark.

Good to hear, thanks Mark.

Or, good to not hear in this case...

Or, good to not hear in this case...
smart a$$ :D

there is so much written about this topless issue that i might have missed something.
has the less dense hot engine air being injected into the air cleaner by removing the top been addressed?? it would seem to me that a larger diameter snorkle might be in order to get the cooler air from the front of the bike.

These are the types of things my tuner wants to experiment with - when I feel like leaving the bike with him ;) Specifically, he wants to play with different locations for the IAT sensor and some kind of panel on the bottom to see if the hot air from the engine negatively affects power. Not sure when we'll get around to this, however if no one else has commented by then I'll post my results.

John it is not nearly as loud as it is when you run topless. I was also concerned about water and hydrostatic lockup. I have been caught in some real terd floaters and could see if the gap was wide open at the side when the top is off that some if not a lot of water would have run through the engine. With car engines we deal with this problem all the time and when they drive through a puddle fast it can destroy an engine.

Max

If you hydra lock an engine while driving, you must be in the lake.that's impossible!

If you hydra lock an engine while driving, you must be in the lake.that's impossible!
Wish that were true. My 944 ingested a fatal quantity of water in 8" of water, driven at just the right speed. The new motor was quoted at $13.5K, when the blue book was $12.5K. Car was totalled by the insurance company. No, I didn't have gap insurance at the time. :spank: :hitfan:

. ...I have been caught in some real terd floaters...

Max

Max: For the sake of knowledge, how many inches of rain in an hour does it take to float a normal sized turd?

Thanks,