This is refering to a VW Jetta with gas in oil. Does the V-rod have same type of injectors?

Digifant-II Fuel Injection is a mechanical fuel injection. That is to say that it has a fuel distributor much like the ignition distributor and mechanical fuel injectors.

The fuel Injectors have no metering function, they open when the fuel pressure in the fuel line exceeds their pre-set opening pressure of 44 to 59 psi (3.0 to 4.1 bar). Over time these springs get weak and the injectors start opening sooner and stay open when the engine is off.

There is a special injector tester that pressurizes the injector and shows exactly how much pressure it takes to open. This is the only reliable way to test the injectors.

I don't see any other way fuel can get into the oil.

Here's something else I found


What about gas in the oil?
This is a strange one. Many, if not most, of us have observed our oil levels rising over time. Upon draining, the oil is very thin, and often smells of gasoline. One lister spent $135 having his oil chemically analyzed only to discover that, indeed, it contained gasoline.
So far, it appears that Suzuki is denying this problem exists.

Conjecture is that the cause is poor ring sealing (possibly from an over-long break-in period) allowing gasoline to slip by the rings and into the crankcase. Another more likely possibility is that the ECU leaves the injector bodies pressurized when the ignition is turned off thus allowing raw fuel to eventually leak into the cylinders.

Best advice is probably to change your oil more often than you ordinarily would.

On Sept 16th, 1997, Russ Parker (russp@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

I spoke to the Suzuki TL specialist again today — here's the deal: excessive combustion byproducts in the oil are caused by two major things on the TL.

As many of us have suspected, the ECM is a major contributor to the gas-in-the-oil problem. Blow-by, map problems, etc. The new ECM will dramatically improve this situation, by eliminating FI problems as a factor. Get the new ECM.

The TL was designed to stay cool (temperature-wise) while being ridden hard. Consequently it takes a long time to warm up. If you ride your TL on lots of short trips, at a relaxed pace, the engine never fully warms up. This will cause a mess. Ride it long, ride it hard.
Neil Pearce ( pearcen@decaf.curtin.edu.au) writes:
Greetings all from the land of OZ. I have discovered a couple of things which may be of interest:

The fuel in oil syndrome can be avoided by the use of the fast idle lever every time you start the bike — not just when it's cold. Apparently the bike tries to keep itself operational when the rpm drops below 300 by flooding the cylinders with fuel. Unfortunately some of the older ECUs get confused and dump the fuel when the bike is not even running. Turning the fast idle to full BEFORE turning on the ignition stops this on most models.

I at first did not believe this but a few tests of my own proved this to be the case. When starting the bike without the fast idle, oil level rises, plugs get fouled, starting gets harder.

(Submitted by H. Marc Lewis) — [Index]
Gas mileage
You'll never get 50 mpg. Live with it.

Interesting! :sinister: ;)

OKIE the V-Rod uses delphi electronic injectors that work off of pulse width modulation from the pcm. In short it sends electronic pulses to the injectors and varies the length of the pulse in order to give either more or less fuel. My guess that all the fuel in the oil is from bad maps, short trips with a lot of cold running time in which the bike is running very rich or rings that may be lined up on the lower side of the cylinder. Neither of my V-Rods have any fuel oder in them and I check and change the oil often.

Max

My oil has had the smell of gas since day one. I`m on the 3rd oil change and still get the gas smell. I`ll mention it to my dealer to see what he says. I`m not particularly worried about it. My oil levels have never risen to be any concern. I have also been screwing with a power commander and pipes where I know the mapping was RICH.

It's probably just my map. Maybe if I put another grand into tuning they'll get it close. :banghead: :sad:

It's probably just my map. Maybe if I put another grand into tuning they'll get it close. :banghead: :sad:

:broke: :chair: ;) :kaz:

No one bite my head off. I know I'm ignorant when it comes to this kind of stuff and I missed out on some prior discussions. But, is it possible if the engine is turned off by the kill switch and the key is left on that the fuel pump can still have power? My bike is running good, not smoking and my plugs look fine. Still, I'm changing oil every 500 miles because it's too runny and smells like gas. I have been known to accidently leave the key on from time to time.

8800 RPM in each gear and the gas in oil problem goes away.
When I get down the road in each gear the gas in the oil is not a problem.
I have heard from other vrod pilots that the vrod will go 120 in thrid gear.
I myself would never go that fast. I think this american rocket was made to run. Has any body gone 140 yet? What about the drag vrod, how fast will it go.? :moped:

8800 RPM in each gear and the gas in oil problem goes away.
When I get down the road in each gear the gas in the oil is not a problem.
I have heard from other vrod pilots that the vrod will go 120 in thrid gear.
I myself would never go that fast. I think this american rocket was made to run. Has any body gone 140 yet? What about the drag vrod, how fast will it go.? :moped:
140 in the 1/4?Piece of cake!Give me some gear and a Long road and I think she'd push 175-180! :twisted: Give me some aero body work and who knows what she would do! :cool:

She'll do it... Just Let Her...

I have three school zones on my way to work so 8800 RPM aint gonna work for me. I'll take the lack of replies as a no to my last question. Thought maybe fuel pressure combined with a leaking injector might be the cause. Sorry if I've insulted your collective intelligance.

Maybe you could check it out by putting a meter on the leads to the fuel pump while cycling the kill switch.

No one bite my head off. I know I'm ignorant when it comes to this kind of stuff and I missed out on some prior discussions. But, is it possible if the engine is turned off by the kill switch and the key is left on that the fuel pump can still have power? My bike is running good, not smoking and my plugs look fine. Still, I'm changing oil every 500 miles because it's too runny and smells like gas. I have been known to accidently leave the key on from time to time.
OKIE,
Its cool Relax nobody is insulted may they just don't know? :rolleyes: As far as I know the only problem you have with leaving the key on is Killing the Battery!The pump doesn't still run.

I still get power to the pump with the kill switch off and the key on.

Interesting, that might explain it. do you think it is enough gas to really hurt though?

Checked it again it only had power to the yellow wire until not the yellow and green until you turn the kill switch to run. I'm probably pissin in the wind. Like I said I'm ignorant to this stuff but this gas in oil thing is buggin and it's hard to believe I've got blow-by. Has anyone with this problem had a leak down test?

OKIE
I was getting scared... It sounded like your relay was bad...

If you don't already have it you can down load the 2003 Harley Wiring Diagram... I don't know where Max has it... Take a look at the Ignition Circuit...

The fuel pump seems to be powered by the y/gn wire which gets power from the system relay. The system realy is powered through the eng. stop/run switch.

Hope It Helps...

Even if the pump doesn't run there's still pressure in the fuel delivery system BUT, the ECM only sends a signal to open the injector when it senses rotation. There's no way, short of a defective ECM or injector that it's staying open after the motor stops turning.

Gas in the oil is not that unheard of, especially in high performance motors that are not run up to full internal operating temperatures and/or are running rich. Take a high performance motor, dump extra gas into each cycle then run the motor at low RPMs to prevent all of the internals to come up to temperature and you will spell gas in the oil. Take the motor, lean it out and routinely run it hard and all that gas in the oil becomes history.

People who are having bad gas in their oil problems need to put the bike back to 100% stock form and run it 500 - 1000 miles and see if they are still having the problem. That means removing all the pipes, air filters, PCIII's, Flashes (the dealer can re flash you back to stock) and putting the top back on. Those are the design parameters of the motor, if it doesn't have the problem under stock condition then there is nothing wrong with the bike.

Sorry it this sounds harsh but I've been reading about this problem for months and NO ONE has thought to put the bike back to stock to see if their modifications could have caused the problem. Everyone's quick to blame the manufacturer but no one has any real scientific evidence other than a few sniff tests and some oil analysis of modified bikes.

OKIE that might be a problem with yours. Mine doesn't run the pump until the kill switch is turned on. The delphi injectors are the same ones that GM has been using for the last 10 years and I can count on one hand the number that have gone bad in as many years and all of those got clogged or went open and wouldn't let any fuel through. I have a tester that lets me check the fuel rate of each injector by giving it a precise time and pulse cycle and then I compare the drop down of fuel pressure between the two injectors. If they vary by as much as two psi difference I replace them and that is rare to see. The normal position for the injectors is closed not open so leaking down would be very rare. You can however tap the fuel rail test port at the injectors and do a leak down test on your injectors if you like but a common problem of leaking injectors would be a missfire on restart from all the extra fuel in the cylinder.

As far as anyone putting you down OKIE no one is at all. If I seem a bit direct in my answers I don't mean anything by it nor do I want to make anyone feel bad, I simply post what all the years of working on engines tells me. I really think that anyone that feels as though they have excess fuel in there oil should do an oil sample. It will prove one way or the other if they have a problem and is probably not a bad idea to check seals for coolant and wear.

Max

OKIE,

I'm not putting you down either, quite the contrary, you're asking all the right questions. My bottom line is I don't think this is a systemic problem with the bike, I think it's caused (and we've all seen reports that some oil samples have high hydrocarbon content) by modifications and/or riding style.

Mark

MJW,

Not sure I can easily track w/ your idea. While for troubleshooting it makes good sense. If it was as easy as HiPo engines do this, we would all see it. I am in the same boat as Okie. But mine has actually been analyzied and 7% after 4k miles and 5% aftre 1800 miles. I ride highway speeds everyday year round or 80 miles a day.

The bike had a screamin eagle exhust, and air kit when I bought it from the dealer. I wanted to make sure I stayed w/ HD stuff during the extended warranty period.

the bike is in for it's 10k service now, and I did take all my paperwork into the nechanic who "SEEMED to give a $hit when I was talking with him. He said he liked a challenge and this was an odd problem. I guess we will see.



Even if the pump doesn't run there's still pressure in the fuel delivery system BUT, the ECM only sends a signal to open the injector when it senses rotation. There's no way, short of a defective ECM or injector that it's staying open after the motor stops turning.

Gas in the oil is not that unheard of, especially in high performance motors that are not run up to full internal operating temperatures and/or are running rich. Take a high performance motor, dump extra gas into each cycle then run the motor at low RPMs to prevent all of the internals to come up to temperature and you will spell gas in the oil. Take the motor, lean it out and routinely run it hard and all that gas in the oil becomes history.

People who are having bad gas in their oil problems need to put the bike back to 100% stock form and run it 500 - 1000 miles and see if they are still having the problem. That means removing all the pipes, air filters, PCIII's, Flashes (the dealer can re flash you back to stock) and putting the top back on. Those are the design parameters of the motor, if it doesn't have the problem under stock condition then there is nothing wrong with the bike.

Sorry it this sounds harsh but I've been reading about this problem for months and NO ONE has thought to put the bike back to stock to see if their modifications could have caused the problem. Everyone's quick to blame the manufacturer but no one has any real scientific evidence other than a few sniff tests and some oil analysis of modified bikes.

Thanks for the replies. Someone told me a cylinder leak down test would rule out blow-by? If I were running rich wouldn't my plugs be black?

Okie do you have a Dyno around that can show the AFR ?

I am in the same boat you are. Not a mechanic. But I did stay at a Holiday inn express last night !!! :-)

Most of the logical answers don't seem to make much sense. Ring sealing... not after 10k miles, Low speed riding.... not at 80 miles per day at highway speed. Running rich.... not with good plugs and no smoke on start up. leaking injector... not likely w/ easy start up.

Less logical.... Vapor recovery purge valve or canister.

If it was everyone it would be easy to find. But there are enough of us to see some type of anomaly that should be fixed...

Okie do you have a Dyno around that can show the AFR ?
Yes it's been tuned on two different dynos that show the AFR. The first guy smoothed it out between 13-14 at full throttle and it ran like absolute shit (flat spot at 3 grand and spit and sputtered when cold). The next guy gave it a huge shot of gas at full throttle and got rid of the flat spot. I was assured the afr was fine at cruising speed. Again, if it were running so rich wouldn't it be running like crap, smoking and flooding and such?
I have a buddy getting a new dynojet next month (8 week waiting list.)

I think that this may be getting off track. Ring sealing I don't think is an issue however ring alignment might be an issue. Keep in mind that an engine uses the rings in stages so that the gases that escape into the crankcase must travel past the first ring groove and then go 180 degrees to the second ring gap and then get split into the location of the oiler ring grooves. If an engine comes with all the ring gaps lined up and they happen to be lined up on the lower side of the cylinder then excess oil consumption or fuel in oil could easily result from this.

Greenham unless yours is a CA model you don't have a vapor purge canister.

You can run good at 80 and still have a very rich fuel mixture only an O2 sensor or 5 gas could make this call.


I already have gotten my sample bottles and will have my next oil tested by a friend at BG however I will add I don't smell any fuel in my oil at all and I run for the most part a stock setup using only HD screaming eagle parts and flash.

Max

The basics are all said, there is not much more add.
My knowledge of the V-rod engine is not yet good enough but I can share some experience from my car with you:
The ignition is on, engine is not running.
The fuel pump starts and pressurizes the fuel system until a pressure switch on the fuel rail tells it to stop again.
If an injectors is leaking then the fuel pump would start and stop quite often and/or it runs very long time. Thus you can determine leaks in the fuel piping quite easy.

The question is if the V-rod fuel pump is also stopped by a pressure switch or if it is a simple timer.

J-D

Okie,

I get the same smell from the AMSOIL I am running. I try to ride the bike as hard as I can, and have bounced the rev limiter a few time in first and second, as discussed in a previous post. I am now only into only 3rd oil change, and am at 14,000 miles.

I used to really worry about changing the oil every couple thousand of miles on the air-cooled Harleys I have owned in the past. With the syn oil, even with the gas smell, I am not too concerned with it. Since the syn oil is not a petroleum based product, I am not too sure what fuel could do to the syn oil, but it seems to be working fine as the motor runs smooth, no noise coming from the motor when run hard.

I think time will tell, as I am going to change the oil and filter at the 5,000 mile intervals even with the fuel smell.

Okie,
Since the syn oil is not a petroleum based product, I am not too sure what fuel could do to the syn oil, but it seems to be working fine as the motor runs smooth, no noise coming from the motor when run hard.


Rich,
Be carefull, synthetic oil or mineral based oil makes very little difference in this aspect!
The fuel oil reduces the lub oil viscosity, thus reducing the lubrication abilities.
And the flash point is going down.
In severe cases a cranck case explosion could happen when a bearing is running hot, but I expect that the pistons would get stuck first.
If you really think that fuel enters the oil then change it immediately and have the old oil analized.
To wait until the engine is making noises is not a good approach...

Jan-Dirk

Answering VRODPILOT's question "how fast will it go?"

Before I started adding the 'comfort' items- (like a wind shield) I got it over 140 on one of those long, empty, no State Trooper Texas roads when I was still there over a year ago. I just wanted to know if it could- yes it can. By this time I was laid over the airboxfeet on the passenger pegs, with my goggles floating away from my face, my half helmet catching the wind and choking the s%!t out of me and my eyes tearing so bad I thought I was underwater which was when sanity tragically kicked in as I was reminded of any one of the 1000's of TX road critters or farm vehicles that could have appeared on the blacktop and ensured my destruction. The last needle position I saw while I could still see was slightly over 140 (guessing 142) on the speedo before I throttled down- it wasn't going to go much faster with my 220 lbs on it. I have no idea what the RPMs were- my head and eyes weren't moving off the road except for one short glance at the speedo. It stumbled once when I wound it up too high in 4th gear -- it must have almost red lined and triggered the 'safety cutout feature' and killed the fuel to one cylinder. I didn't push it hard enough in 5th gear to repeat that, so there may have been some juice left after all. It was a fairly flat road and a calm wind. I had on the SE pipes/filter/chip at the time. I will say that the faster the V-Rod goes, the more solid it feels-- like it was riding on a steel rail- no bucking, shaking or jittering around- there's vibration, but nothing bad. It was cool, but I'm not likely to repeat that on a public road. Lady Luck has that habit of dumping you just when you need her most. :moped:

Rich,
Be carefull, synthetic oil or mineral based oil makes very little difference in this aspect!
The fuel oil reduces the lub oil viscosity, thus reducing the lubrication abilities.
And the flash point is going down.
In severe cases a cranck case explosion could happen when a bearing is running hot, but I expect that the pistons would get stuck first.
If you really think that fuel enters the oil then change it immediately and have the old oil analized.
To wait until the engine is making noises is not a good approach...

Jan-Dirk



Jan-Dirk,

Thanks for the tip. I just talked with my AMSOIL supplier, and he thought getting the tests done would be good, so as to know what is up with this gas-in-the-oil-issue.

My AMSOIL supplier has provided a kit (one kit, 2 tests) for 25.00 and covers shipping of sample, sampling tests and reports. Once this is done, I will get the info up on the site.

Chuck, who is the guy I get the AMSOIL from advised that gas in the oil with injector systems is a rather common issue( for automotive systems), and if suspected, the testing should be done so as to acknowledge the problem, and then to begin research as to why it occurs.

Nothing new to post here on that, obviously. But knowing that fuel is found in the oil means that either the system is too rich, or there is a definite leak down through the fuel/injector system.

Chuck also stated that a certain amount of VOC's could escape from the fuel while in the oil, but if the tests indicate a presence of petroleum in the syn, there is a definite problem with the system, as this is one where the system only has petroleum based products through the fuel.

Chuck also suggested that AMSOIL produces an additive for the fuel that aids in keeping the fuel system clean, and supposedly to aid in when the system is shut off, the clean injector would not allow pressure in the fuel lines to the injector to leak fuel into the system (if this is suspect in the problem).

He also advised that there would be a noticible difference in performance as well. Not sure how it works, but it might be worth looking into. Nothing like VooDoo chemicals to make things right.....maybe.

It will be interesting to see how the tests look.

Addressing the ring issue, where if the rings were lined up to allow the fuel to push by the rings, or the rings are lined up where the slots are on top of one another, is the slot line up possible? Are not the ring slots on the piston pinned, which means that the rings can only be put on staggered so as not to allow the slots to stack one on top of another?

If they are pinned, that would mean that the rings have pushed over these pins, and would eat the cylinder wall up so there would be a definite loss of compression, and if I am not mistaken, some oil blow by causing blue smoke instead of black smoke if the engine is running rich.

The logical conclusion would seem to be between rich settings on the ECM or leak down of fuel pressure directly into the cylinder from the injectors themselves.

In that case, I am inclined to believe that the injectors would be where the issue is at.

The ECM would be the first place to look at a change, then tests of fuel leak down would be next.

One other thought, has anyone had a test done for unspent hydrocarbon in their exhaust while the motor is running been done yet?

Rich, you buddy Chuck is talking too much, I assume he is a good salesman...
An Oil analysis usually consists of following tests:
1) viscosity
2) flash point (as indication of fuel)
3) water content
4) solids content like silicium, ash, iron, copper, alu, etc

It is absolute BULLSHIT to say that any kind of additive would result in better performance or lower the fuel consumption. If you are lucky then it's only a waste of money...
No No No!
Concerning the rings:
I do assume that the ring grooves are not pinned, thus the piston rings are able to turn around which is good for self cleaning effect and reduces the wear rate. It is correct that the ring gaps can overlap in this case but this happens only for a short time and does not harm your engine.
Rings cannot be pushed over the grooves unless you have excessive wear, and you don't have this problem, believe me.
Measure the time the fuel pump is running when you turn the ignition key (engine off) and we can compare.
On mine it is about 2 seconds or so.

Jan

:sad: Just checked my oil after 200 miles. Smells like gas and seems thin already. It's going back to the tuner.

Jan,

No worry, no additives. I have used the injector cleaners in my GMC truck, but only after 120,000 miles, and it did help at idle after running a few bottles through over a couple months time span.

For those that are interested in piston technology, there is a really good write up in CYCLE WORLD April 2004. it is an editorial written by KEVIN CAMERON and titles CUTTING IT CLOSE. The article is about 2 ring pistons, 1 - oil ring, and 1 - compression/wiper ring. Smaller pistons, decreased load on the lower end, small skirts etc. Very interesting for those who might not have given much thought to what is going on in the arena of piston technology.

Jan, thinking more about it, the last top-end rebuild on my Sportster, the pistons did not have the pin I originally believed to be incorporated into the ring land area. Staggering the rings is the installers job, and as I recall, the opeings should be 180 degrees apart, with exception to the oil ring, and that is 90 degrees to the ring just above the oil ring.

With some float of the rings, which I believe would be no more than a thousands of an inch, the rings do need to operate in the same area in order to seat properly.

After reading the Cycle World article, and not having the manual or V-rod pistons in front of me, are the V-rod pistons 3 ring or 2 ring pistons? if they are 2 ring, there is an increased chance of blow by, and also if the injectors do leak a minute amount, a definite increase in the volume of fuel introduced to the lower end.

I sent my sample out yesterday to AMSOIL, and will see in the next week or so, what they have to say about what I have in the motor.

One thing that was interesting, the kit had some sales literature regarding a special filter assembly, that would permit running the same oil for tons of miles, with only filter changes. AMSOIL strongly recommends that the oil samples be sent on a regular basis to them, to advise when the filter should be changed, and untimately a complete oil and filter change. AMSOIL also recommends that when going to their Synoil, to begin the sampling as soon as possible so as to have a good baseline to compare over the life of the motor.

I have to think that if this is what they have been doing for their customers, they are in the know about what the lifecycle is of their product in tons of applications. An interesting part of that is that synthetics are used in turbine motors that turn many thousands RPM higher than our V-Rods would ever see.

I am not sure however about the introduction of thinning agents into the oils, such as fuel, and what the ultimate outcome is under severe stress.

Okie, if you are smelling gas, I would ask the dealer to have the oil anaylized, or do it on your own. By doing so, the proof is in front of the of the mechanic that something might be amiss.

Does anyone know for fact that MoCo just may be aware of this issue, but with their tests they showed, such as the 8 hour run in the closed in desert test, that no failure would or should occur, even with the potential of fuel getting into the oil? It would seem at idle, the bike would have a lot more fuel getting into the oil than at speed or RPM.

Anyway, I want to see what the report states before trying to figure out if something needs to be done on the mechanical/electrical side of the machine.

Okie,

If the Delphi system is like other modern FI systems, the injectors are activated (opened) when they receive a ground/closed circuit. The fuel pressure is completely regulated by a fuel pressure regulator upstream of both injectors.

The fuel system should hold fuel pressure for a specified time, even after power is shut off. However, if power is shut off, there will be an open circuit to the injectors which will prevent the injectors from remaining open. However, something (grit, varnish, etc.) could still hold an injector open.

After talking to a mechanic in a totally different field he suggested I drain all the oil and turn the key back in forth to see if gas comes out the oil drain.
It still has an occasional drip of oil but when I turn the key on and off it gets faster. I'll know more in the morning after the oil has completely drained.

Okie,

That may work but I would doubt it. To get ALL the residual oil out of the bike then turn the key on and look for a stream of fuel would indicate such a large fuel leak that the crankcase would fill in min of raw fuel. When my mechanic found the leaking injector he said it would only drip 1 or 2 drops each time the power was turned on. Doesn't sound like much, but I did a quick calculation and in my case that would be 100-150 starts and stops, in a oil change interval (2200 miles). That would be between 200-300 drops of fuel, which is a significant amount if it all gets down into the crankcase. I don't think you would ever see a single drop of fuel drip out of the drain plug.

My recommendation would be, do what I did, keep going to other stealerships. See if you can get the mechanic to do a drip test and a injector leak test. IF they find something, it will be covered under your mfg warranty because they consider the injectors emission equip. If they don't perhaps you have only paid an hr or 2 of labor to rule out a major suspected component.


After talking to a mechanic in a totally different field he suggested I drain all the oil and turn the key back in forth to see if gas comes out the oil drain.
It still has an occasional drip of oil but when I turn the key on and off it gets faster. I'll know more in the morning after the oil has completely drained.

The oil had stopped dripping this morning. I turned the key on and off a few times and nothing. I waited a minute and was about to give up then DRIP.............drip.........drip....drip.drip. I'm getting way more than a drip every time I shut it down.

A fuel pressure gauge on the service port or to pull the injector is the only way to do a leak test on an injector.

Max

I tried it again and nothing. DAMN! Maybe me touching the bike made t drip before. I'm gonna take the injectors out and get a first hand look at them.

Ok Max I posted after you.

I'm doing the leakdown test. How long should the system hold exact pressure? If it does leak down how do you know which way it went? Tank or motor?

OKIE I run leak down test for 1 minute on average. If it fails the leak down test then you have to determine at that time if it is pump, regulator or injectors or lines. Everytime I find a leaking injector or regulator the pressure drops the second you turn the key off and continues to fall and will usually be less then 20psi within a minute.

Max

It went to 60 when I turned the key then instantly dropped to 58 then slowly leaked to 54.

Theres a ticking noise when it drops the first two pounds.

Sounds like a tight system OKIE. I doubt that you have an injector leaking.

Thanks. :banghead: