Has anyone out there had problems with their Chrome?
My chrome is flaking and peeling on both sides of the motor.
My dealer asked if I had any chemicals stored in my garage.
I have no chemicals in my garage and I do not have a swimming
pool.

MY V-Rod is an 02.

Andy

Hello Andy and welcome to the forum. I am moving this to the problem section and if you do a search you will find a couple of others that live along the east coast that had similar problems.

Max

Andy I canot believe that they would ask you that... What do they think you live in a toxic dump and you are not smart enough to know if the chemicals are slowley eating away at your bike...
I guess I would have told them to go P!SS up a rope ..... :soapbox:

Sorry to go off on them its just that I have noticed that some of the people working at the Dealerships are strange to say the least..... I'll take my high blood pressure meds. and cool down....

Andy,
It standard procedure to interrogate you.They want to know your whole life,and then blame it on something you did when you were 10.No seriously,They try to put the blame on the owner not the quality of their products.
Besides if it was around chemicals or a pool,alot more chrome,aluminum,paint,etc damage.

I guess I would have told them to go P!SS up a rope ..... :soapbox:

lol :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Andy,sorry forgot to Welcome you to our little community that keeps growing and growing.Both in knowledge and members.

Andy check this thread out,

http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=749&highlight=flake

My father in law was at the Harley hospitality show last Monday night at the Ocean Center and was talking to one of the HD guys about chrome fork lowers for his RKC. To quote the HD rep. "You're not buying the HD chrome lowers are you"? He's not, he's having a local plater do them !!!! Nuf said.

Andy check this thread out,

http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=749&highlight=flake


Thank You!!!! This Forum stuff is new to me, but I see where it is
going to be very useful.

Andy

Andy,sorry forgot to Welcome you to our little community that keeps growing and growing.Both in knowledge and members.

Thanks for the welcome! I'm new to this forum stuff, but can tell it's \going to be useful.

Andy

My father in law was at the Harley hospitality show last Monday night at the Ocean Center and was talking to one of the HD guys about chrome fork lowers for his RKC. To quote the HD rep. "You're not buying the HD chrome lowers are you"? He's not, he's having a local plater do them !!!! Nuf said.


Thanks for the reply.

Andy

We had a whole bunch of junk chrome warranteed on the '02. What's even worse is, the replacement parts they sent were also pitted and bubbling.

Has anyone out there had problems with their Chrome?
My chrome is flaking and peeling on both sides of the motor.
My dealer asked if I had any chemicals stored in my garage.
I have no chemicals in my garage and I do not have a swimming
pool.

MY V-Rod is an 02.

Andy

I have an 02 with the same problem and it's never been near the coast. I reported while still under warranty and was politely told to eat shit and die. Then they up and replace everything for Jstranick. I hope they do for you also. Good luck and keep us posted.

Only problem I had was an anniversary medallion lose the chrome on the "HA". Took forever to get the part from the factory, but because of the posts here I frequently check out the chrome on my baby. Best of luck to you, keep us posted, and welcome to the forum.
Greg

You guys don't have to get so defensive all the time, the dealership is just asking the standard questions. Are they to assume that customers will come in and say the following: "Hey mister dealership....I just got done washing my bike in chlorine and rinsing it with sulfuric acid, and my chrome is peeling. Can you replace it under warranty?" They are just asking what has to be asked. I am sure that they will replace it under warranty if it is defective. We relpace chrome all the time for that exact reason, sometimes it can be as simple as a fingerprint on a part that causes the entire piece to have bad chroming. Just remember, you get much more with honey than with vinegar.

Later,
BART

"Hey mister dealership....I just got done washing my bike in chlorine and rinsing it with sulfuric acid, and my chrome is peeling. Can you replace it under warranty?" When was the last time someone did this?????????????? and with that said I just got back from the dealer for some warrenty sp?work they did a great job :thumb: :thumb: Thanks Greg

Bart,
You do you live at Disney Land ?... Come on Dude, You have to admit the Dealerships will do there best to find a way out of having to replace high dollar items... And I understand what you mean about asking questions... But you also should know how to ask the questions in a way that dose not offend the customer. This is a problem that not only the Dealerships have but most any company that deals with the public have..... If your staff is not trained in people skills then you have a big problem...Dont get me wrong there are great people representing the dealerships out there (RICK NIELSON) is a good example of that....So I guess what I'm trying to say is you got the good and the bad at the dealerships...And unfortunately the good are the minority.....

P.S. I respect you view on this matter and being able to express mine is why this forum is so great..... peace my brother.....

Ricky... very well put !!! :thumb: :thumb:

TANGO MIKE HOMMIE.......

Bart,
You do you live at Disney Land ?... Come on Dude, You have to admit the Dealerships will do there best to find a way out of having to replace high dollar items... And I understand what you mean about asking questions... But you also should know how to ask the questions in a way that dose not offend the customer. This is a problem that not only the Dealerships have but most any company that deals with the public have..... If your staff is not trained in people skills then you have a big problem...Dont get me wrong there are great people representing the dealerships out there (RICK NIELSON) is a good example of that....So I guess what I'm trying to say is you got the good and the bad at the dealerships...And unfortunately the good are the minority.....

P.S. I respect you view on this matter and being able to express mine is why this forum is so great..... peace my brother.....

THANKS FOR THE COMPLEMENT, BUT LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT ITS LIKE
TO HAVE SEVERAL PEOPLE EVERY DAY TRY TO GET SOME THING FOR
FREE. FIRST THE FACTORY WILL ONLY WARRANTY ONE CHROME PIECE
PER BIKE NO MATTER HOW MANY ARE PEELING THIER RULE NOT THE
DEALERSHIPS.WE JUST HAVE TO TAKE THE ABUSE AND SMILE.SECOND
IN 5 YEARS ONE CUSTOMER HAS ADMITTED CAUSING A PROBLEM HIMSELF.
EVEN WHEN ITS OBVIOUS SOME ONE,WHO KNOWS WHO, CAUSED THE
PROBLEM. WE ARE EXPECTEDTO FIX IT FOR FREE . THIRD WHEN WE TURN IN WARRANTY CLAIMS TO THE FACTORY THEY REVIEW IT AND THE PARTS
AND EITHER OK THE CLAIM OR DENY IT. IF THEY DENY THE CLAIM THE
DEALER EATS LABOR AND PARTS. THUS THEY ARE TRAINED TO PROTECT
THE INTEREST OF THE BUSINESS. WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SELL THERE
PROBLEM TO THE FACTORY IN ORDER TO RECOUP THE COSTS. AND FINALLY
I'AM SURE EVERY ONE YOU KNOW AS WELL AS YOUR SELF TELLS THE WHOLE
TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH SO HELP YOU GOD. ALSO I KNOW OF
DEALERSHIPS THAT IF YOU ALLOW A CUSTOMER TO TAKE ADVANTAGE
THE DEALERSHIP (YOU THE EMPLOYEE) YOU PAY FOR IT OUT OF YOUR CHECK. SO TRY TO UNERSTAND THEY MAY BE TRYING TO PROTECT THERE OWN POCKET WHEN THEY INTEROGAITE YOU,THEY ARE TRAINED TO. IT'S
NOT ABOUT THE COST OF THE PART IT'S WHO'S PAYING FOR IT.AS FAR AS
KNOWING HOW TO ASK QUESTIONS THAT DONT OFFEND PEOPLE WHEN
MOST ARE ALLREADY PISSED OFF,HAVE AN ATTITUDE.TRY TO UNDERSTAND
EVEN YOU WILL TAKE ABUSE FOR ONLY AWHILE.I'VE FOUND THAT IT'S
THE CUSTOMERS ATTITUDE THAT SETS THE STAGE NOT ALLWAYS BUT
MOST OF THE TIME IMHO. :soapbox:

THANKS FOR THE COMPLEMENT, BUT LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT ITS LIKE
TO HAVE SEVERAL PEOPLE EVERY DAY TRY TO GET SOME THING FOR
FREE. FIRST THE FACTORY WILL ONLY WARRANTY ONE CHROME PIECE
PER BIKE NO MATTER HOW MANY ARE PEELING THEIR RULE NOT THE
DEALERSHIPS.WE JUST HAVE TO TAKE THE ABUSE AND SMILE.SECOND
IN 5 YEARS ONE CUSTOMER HAS ADMITTED CAUSING A PROBLEM HIMSELF.
EVEN WHEN ITS OBVIOUS SOME ONE,WHO KNOWS WHO, CAUSED THE
PROBLEM. WE ARE EXPECTED TO FIX IT FOR FREE . THIRD WHEN WE TURN IN WARRANTY CLAIMS TO THE FACTORY THEY REVIEW IT AND THE PARTS
AND EITHER OK THE CLAIM OR DENY IT. IF THEY DENY THE CLAIM THE
DEALER EATS LABOR AND PARTS. THUS THEY ARE TRAINED TO PROTECT
THE INTEREST OF THE BUSINESS. WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SELL THERE
PROBLEM TO THE FACTORY IN ORDER TO RECOUP THE COSTS. AND FINALLY
I'M SURE EVERY ONE YOU KNOW AS WELL AS YOUR SELF TELLS THE WHOLE
TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH SO HELP YOU GOD. ALSO I KNOW OF
DEALERSHIPS THAT IF YOU ALLOW A CUSTOMER TO TAKE ADVANTAGE
THE DEALERSHIP (YOU THE EMPLOYEE) YOU PAY FOR IT OUT OF YOUR CHECK. SO TRY TO UNDERSTAND THEY MAY BE TRYING TO PROTECT THERE OWN POCKET WHEN THEY INTERROGATE YOU,THEY ARE TRAINED TO. IT'S
NOT ABOUT THE COST OF THE PART IT'S WHO'S PAYING FOR IT.AS FAR AS
KNOWING HOW TO ASK QUESTIONS THAT DONT OFFEND PEOPLE WHEN
MOST ARE ALREADY PISSED OFF,HAVE AN ATTITUDE.TRY TO UNDERSTAND
EVEN YOU WILL TAKE ABUSE FOR ONLY AWHILE.I'VE FOUND THAT IT'S
THE CUSTOMERS ATTITUDE THAT SETS THE STAGE NOT ALWAYS BUT
MOST OF THE TIME IMHO.

Rick,
I'm with you 100% on the above thread....What I am expressing to you and others on the forum is that there is a trend world wide that the dealerships will suck up to you and paint a pretty picture on service and commitment to their customers...Now you have bought the bike and received you letter in the mail thanking you for the purchase, Next you get a birthday card from the dealership...then comes the Christmas card....And lets not leave out the HOG patches....WOW LIFE IS WONDERFULL...Then all of a sudden you have a problem with the bike so you take it in and THE FIRST THING YOU ARE ASKED IS DID YOU BUY FROM US...I feel like telling them NO I WON IT IN A ONE LEGGED A$$ KICKING CONTEST...After they determine If you bought the bike from them or not the FIRST SMART A$$ ANSWER IS WELL YOU DIDN'T BUY FROM US, SO WHY ARE YOU BRINGING IT TO US... Now the mood is set to be friends for life with the service writer. Next you explain your problem to the Service writer and 9 out of 10 times they reply with WELL ITS A V-ROD....Now we have determined what the problem is and by then its lunch time so you the customer do the right thing and head to Burger King and have it your way....Upon returning to the dealership you are greeted by the friendly service writer and told that we cant warranty your problem due to the fact that you the customer changed the oil yourself and that could be a factor to why your engine is stalling.....Ric I say BULL HOCKY....Next you have to see the service manager and tell your whole life story again....AND TO YOUR AMAZEMENT HE TELLS YOU NO PROBLEM WE WILL COVER IT....
Now life is great you go to the show room floor and shop while they take your bike behind a number coded door (As in a nuke site) There you are spending more money when you walk to the coke machine and look out the window and see YOUR BIKE FLYING DOWN THE ROAD LIKE A BAT OUT OF HELL...You see thats the test ride that all mechanics must do after all work ... RICK again I CALL THE BULL SH!T CARD......its one thing to test ride its another to abuse someones bike.....The first thing they say when they get back is MAN THESE V-RODS HAUL ASS.... RICK you and I have spoken on the phone several times and I know without a dought you do not condone these types of acts.....And you have to agree the above statements are RIGHT ON THE MONEY....I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND WHY THE % of DIPSTICKS IS SO HIGH WITH THE DEALERSHIPS......IF WE STARTED A THREAD OF WAR STORIES AT THE DEALERSHIP IT WOULD GET MORE HITS THAT A HOOTERS WAITRESS...... IF IM THE ONLY ONE WHO FEELS THIS WAY PLEASE STAMP MY I.D. CARD (NO DESERT).....

P. S. I STILL LOVE YA BROTHER....... :D :D :D

I had my VROD peel the paint off of the Nuclear Reactor that is next door...PG&E is trying to get it repainted under Halliburton's warranty ...

When i Had my bike serviced they test rode it like a bat out of hell on the interstate next to the dealer ship..i heard a bike screaming up the highway, glanced, and it was MY bike.Speed limit is 75 and they were FLYING past the other traffic.
This was AFTER i had them run a DYNO (no tune). It did not really bother me.But they could have atleast asked if it was alright first.
So i am going to have to back Ricky on this one.

My bike has been in the shop 2 times in its life...First was to install 16 ga,download and air filter...The little jerk had the nerve to blast out of the dealership in front of me and the service manager. I told the service manager to go ahead a call a paramedic...He said what for...I told him that when that mechanic gets back on my bike the paramedics will have to extract my foot from his a$$.... The service manager made the mechanic apologize to me.....
The second time was in Austin....I had the fuel recall done....I made sure the there was little or no fuel in the bike...They rolled it out to me and stated that I need to take it for a test run. I asked why the mechanic did not take it and there reply was .....You bike is low on fuel and we are not authorized to put fuel in it ..........So the moral of the story is TAKE YOUR BIKE TO THE SHOP WITH LITTLE OR NO FUEL......

I know there are dealerships that do take care of the customer(JSTRANICKS dealer) but they are a minority. For the most part they know they are selling a product in high demand and have an arrogance about it. I bought my 02 used still under warranty. Once I got it home and went over it with a fine tooth comb I noticed tiny blisters and cracks in the chrome. The service manager assured me it would be taken care of and filed a claim. He took pictures (the defects were too small to show up) and sent them in. A factory rep called me and said the problem was so wide spread (most every cover) they thought it was something the previous owner or I must have done to cause it. The original owner is a friend and used only Harley cleaning products and I had not even washed it yet. The thing that bothers me the most is a rep did not even take the time to look at it. Surely there are tests that can be performed to determin the cause of the problem. All I got was a short NO. The dealer said they were sorry and offered to sell me the parts for cost. I hate to wish it on anyone but am hoping the problem becomes so wide spread they have to do something.
Does anyone know of a lab that could determin the cause? I'll put a new one on and send the old one for testing.

I really am not trying to start a pissing match on this forum and we are all entitled to our opinions. However, it seems like most of you that bitch about your dealerships go in looking for a fight. I dont think you realize the mantality of people you are dealing with. There is one word to describe what everyone wants from customers...RESPECT! Hey, we realize that everything is not perfect, and we realize that we all make mistakes. But the one thing that will get you stonewalled quicker than you can say boo, is to disrespect a dealership employee. You simply have to realize the lifestyle that most of the employees live, fast & hard. You call a spade a spade, and do your job as well as you can. If someone comes into my office with an attitude, and keeps bustin my balls, the entire dealership knows he is an A$$hole before he steps one foot out the door. This is just how it works, most dealerships are a tight knit team, who work together and try their hardest to do a good job. As I read these posts I become more and more disturbed at the level of anger that this forum has towards dealerships. It is disheartening, and disgusting.

Bart

BART,
Please do not take any of our views as if they are being addressed towards something that you have done....I dont know you and you probably are the nicest guy on earth and treat all your customers with the up most respect...But the sad part is guys like you have to suffer for the actions of the high percentage of BONEHEAD'S that WORK AND RUN OTHER DEALERSHIPS.... Again BART dont take these comments to heart, YOU MUST AGREE DUE TO THE LARGE VOLUME OF COMPLAINTS TOWARDS DEALERSHIPS THERE MUST BE SOMETHING TO IT.....And I know that pleasing everyone is not easy but THE ATTITUDES AND REMARKS THAT COME FROM EMPLOYEES OF DEALERSHIPS ARE DUE TO POOR TRAINING AND NOT HAVING PEOPLE SKILLS.....And yes there are customers that need their attitudes adjusted and they deserve it........KEEP THE FAITH MY BROTHER
Bart[/QUOTE]

Ricky, Thanks for the info, I undertand what you are saying completly. I was a customer long before I was an employee.

F.Y.I. i talked with a H-D rep this morning and he stated that H-D will replace any and all chrome that is defective on a bike. They will do this till one of two things happen, the bike goes out of warranty or the chroming is brought up to spec. He also stated that there is no restriction on the number or chrome parts that are warrantied on each bike.

Thanks Bart that is good information.

Max

Bart...... Thanks :thumb: :thumb:

Ricky, Thanks for the info, I undertand what you are saying completly. I was a customer long before I was an employee.

F.Y.I. i talked with a H-D rep this morning and he stated that H-D will replace any and all chrome that is defective on a bike. They will do this till one of two things happen, the bike goes out of warranty or the chroming is brought up to spec. He also stated that there is no restriction on the number or chrome parts that are warrantied on each bike.

That's good news.....

P.S. When are you going to take me to lunch... :goof: :goof:

Bart,
Is there any recourse on a denied claim?

OKIE, never forget about the customer service number on page 2 of your owners manual! H-D really cares about your input, just remember that they have heard every bull#$@! story in the books. Don't burn your bridges, everything you say can be tied to your VIN number.

Later,
BART

My chrome upper belt guard started to bubble on the top. Took it to the dealer and showed the service manager. He looked at it and said he would replace it only if they had originally installed it which I assured him they did. He went and checked my service history and stated he would replace. I had a similar issue with one of the chrome mirrors they installed and had that replaced as well. So I had no issues getting the parts replaced but I was annoyed at the fact that they would only replace if they had installed it. WTF does that have to do with the faulty chrome? They should replace the part regardless since it is there product and under warranty at the time.

A chrome upper belt guard is not a factory item.....and is thus not under a factory warranty. However, if the stuff was installed when you picked up the bike,they grandfather in most of the parts.

Later,
BART

[QUOTE=Bart]I really am not trying to start a pissing match on this forum and we are all entitled to our opinions. However, it seems like most of you that bitch about your dealerships go in looking for a fight. I dont think you realize the mantality of people you are dealing with. There is one word to describe what everyone wants from customers...RESPECT! Hey, we realize that everything is not perfect, and we realize that we all make mistakes. But the one thing that will get you stonewalled quicker than you can say boo, is to disrespect a dealership employee. You simply have to realize the lifestyle that most of the employees live, fast & hard. You call a spade a spade, and do your job as well as you can. If someone comes into my office with an attitude, and keeps bustin my balls, the entire dealership knows he is an A$$hole before he steps one foot out the door. This is just how it works, most dealerships are a tight knit team, who work together and try their hardest to do a good job. As I read these posts I become more and more disturbed at the level of anger that this forum has towards dealerships. It is disheartening, and disgusting.


Bart and Friends:

I want you to know that I have a very good relationship with my Dealership.
It started in 1994 with an FXR then and Electra Glide Standard and now a
V-Rod.

I just asked the question about my chrome on this forum to see if anyboby
else has had the problem in case I needed a little support for my claim.

I understand you get more with Honey than you do with Vinagar.

I consider all the staff at my dealership friends and almsot family.

Thanks to all that have replied to my post. As I said before I am new to
this Forum stuff. This is an excellent Forum and I have greatly enjoyed all
the V-Rod photos.

I'm fixing to do some stuff to mine and if I can figure it out, I will share a
picture with you.

Again, thanks for the welcome and your replies.

Andy

A chrome upper belt guard is not a factory item.....and is thus not under a factory warranty. However, if the stuff was installed when you picked up the bike,they grandfather in most of the parts.

Later,
BART

OK, so even if it aint "FACTORY" you mean to tell me there is no warranty what so ever on the part? The part has Harley`s name on it!

Thats what i am thinking Tbag, it is a HD genuine part, even if it was not on the bike from the factory, that is after all why they have a accessory catalog.

Accessorys are covered under a much more limited warrenty, usually 30 to 90 days by most manufacturers

I think the warranty on all accessories is 90 days. If it is after 90 days.....you're S.O.L.

I think the warranty on all accessories is 90 days. If it is after 90 days.....you're S.O.L.

Thats really sad.....

I got a plan Tbag, go buy a new one, return it the next week for cash with your old one in the Box....hehe

TBAG, why is it sad??? All of a sudden the products made by H-D should have to forever warranty plan? not many things we buy have more than a 90 day warranty.

I hate to even get into this but: :2cents:
I was reaching for a tool the other day and realized my Craftsman wrench was almost 20 years old. None of my wrench or socket chrome has ever pealed and they back them up forever. Regular beatings and harsh chemicals are standard for tools.
So my point is not to plug Craftsman, but to illustrate that for what we pay for HD accessories, we deserve the best as far as customer satisfaction. We all know the profit margin on stuff like that is huge. I hate it when companies dont do it right the first time, then try to make it the customers fault.
:soapbox:

Ride on-

TBAG, why is it sad??? All of a sudden the products made by H-D should have to forever warranty plan? not many things we buy have more than a 90 day warranty.

First of all Mr. Bartman,

I never said Harley has to warranty a part for life, however any Warranty on parts from HD with less than a year sucks IMHO! Me bitching about it won`t change that so I guess me (the consumer) must eat shitt every now and then! Why do we pay premium pricing on a product that will be less than premium? Like Adamsg said, the profit margin is HIGH on HD parts so they can and should be able to replace defective parts at there expense. I`m not someone who tries to get something for nothing. I am willing to pay top dollar for most items but expect customer satisfaction in return. Like I said before I have not had a problem with my dealer on any warranty issues YET! Remember GOOD BUSINESS means DOING THE RIGHT THING!

First of all Mr. Bartman,

I never said Harley has to warranty a part for life, however any Warranty on parts from HD with less than a year sucks IMHO! Me bitching about it won`t change that so I guess me (the consumer) must eat shitt every now and then! Why do we pay premium pricing on a product that will be less than premium? Like Adamsg said, the profit margin is HIGH on HD parts so they can and should be able to replace defective parts at there expense. I`m not someone who tries to get something for nothing. I am willing to pay top dollar for most items but expect customer satisfaction in return. Like I said before I have not had a problem with my dealer on any warranty issues YET! Remember GOOD BUSINESS means DOING THE RIGHT THING!

TBAG808,
Its sad that you have to pay the price for the dealership THAT YOU ARE DEALING WITH I'M SURE THAT THEY HAVE BUILT A REPUTATION FOR BEING EXCELLENT UNTIL AFTER THE SELL. AGAIN ITS JUST A CASE OF NOT BEING TRAINED PROPERLY AND POOR CUSTOMER RELATIONS.....

P.S. YOU CAN BET YOU A$$ THAT THE EMPLOYEES DO NOT HAVE THESE PROBLEMS (IF YOU GET MY DRIFT)

A chrome upper belt guard is not a factory item.....and is thus not under a factory warranty. However, if the stuff was installed when you picked up the bike,they grandfather in most of the parts.

Later,
BART

BART,
So what you are trying to say is if the belt guard (which is not a factory item) is touched and put on by a dealership then you will honor any and all defects. But if a customer puts it on then he or her is sh!t out of luck.....
NOW THATS WHAT I CALL CUSTOMER SATASFACTION.....

Bart you wonder why people have attitudes WELL HERES YOUR SIGN....

P.S. The above statement is just my point of view and not directed to you specifically :cheers: :cheers:

Ricky, one of the reasons that H-D will warranty an item when it is installed at the shop is that they know it was installed properly, or at least they tried to properly train the tech. Many of the issues with warranty parts is due to customer error when installing them. Also, if you dont like it....vote with your wallet, I do. Also, there is a difference between a defect and what many customers come in with. A good example is the following: A decent customer who is 400lbs and rides road king buys a bell for his bike. He mounts it under the bottom triple tree. The bell smashes into the fender, however, we will never admit it and tells the service manager that it was the brake line. Our service manager took a picture of the bell underneath the tree on the previous service just for documentation because he knew it would smash the hell out of the fender. The customer wanted it warrantied, and denied the bell being there. Our service manager gave him the picture and with smile on his face told him that he WOULD warranty it. The guy knew that we knew, but we did it anyway. I guess this debate will never end. I give up. If you dont want to be satisfied with a situation, you never will be. Some people travel through life with a negative outlook and expect everyone else to jump in on their pity party. Misery loves company.

BART

P.S. The above statement is just my point of view and not directed to you specifically.

At this point I think that everyone has had there say so I will lock this thread to keep this from turning into just a pissing match.

Max