Has anybody installed the D & D 2-1 exhaust system? If you have this system, what does it sound like. Can you use the sceaming eagle chip with exhaust system.

Kit I have heard one set of these and I would assume since it is rather loud that it is much more open then a stock exhaust with less restriction so I would not plan to use a stock flash. I have also heard a couple of rumors of finish quality but this I can't confirm.

Max

i have the slip ons and they sound great

What Max said.
Go to v-mod.com and click on resources,then click on v-mod files.Chopper steve has a sound byte for them.They sound alright(LOUD)but, I like my supertrapp better.

http://www.v-mod.com/media/
here is the link.

I like the supertrapps also they were my final two... Went with D&D because in my opinion the sound is deeper and sounds a bit more like a "harley" :2cents:

Azslight,
Do you have a dyno sheet?D&D claim some big #'s with those pipes and the HD download.Alot of people think that they are BSing people.I just would like to know what hp you got with them. :)

vrodvinny
i had it dynoed and am going to get the sheet.. However i will be out of town until next tuesday. When i get back and get my hands on it i will let you know. :thumb:

Can ya tell us v-rodders what #'s you got?
What are you using racetuner,download,pcIII,etc?

What do you mean "topless"?

Topless refers to the air filter housing cover being left off.

Max

Azslightdraw since you have them for some time now, would you post a pic now that they're broken in?
Mine are Joker's! I have some pics posted already.
If it's what they claim on the website I'm in. :rofl:

D&D is based out of Ft Worth and an associate of mine used to race for them. I'll ask him if he can still get any inside information from them.

Max

eduarprmd,
if you remember Okie got big #'s with his force pipes.

If you get pre and post hp like that I swear on my own future grave. I'm in :lick: !

I'll say WTF and try. This is minor surgery and I'm not much into other embelishments for motorcycles :goof: .

JM's are polished, not chrome. After the JM's I haven't even cleaned mine so I don't know if some of the discoloration will dissapear with Mother's or whatever, if it does not then they are shit :tmbsdow: . Since I'm such a pig with motorcycles I'm not caring much for it. BUT I sure have learned a lot from HD people here. What's true for most here is also true for others I meet where I live. What I'm still certain of is that the look I really like is that of a short and open upswept design as in the JM's and the D&D's. Any problems with discoloration with the D&D setup? Rust?

eduarprmd,
if you remember Okie got big #'s with his force pipes.

Vinny,
No offense to Okie, but those numbers are so out of line, I just don't trust them. Meaning I think the dyno is way off on it's calibration.



John

I know.something is amiss

I'll cut it off!

my pipes only have about a 100 miles on them I just got the bike a month ago and it is 0 degrees in ohio so i have not been able to get out and ride. i can post pics if you still want them but it wont be until next weekend because i am in florida on vacation

Cool! Vacation.
Of course I'm interested in the pics.
Mine turned yellow after the first dyno runs. It was blue to about 3 inches out.
I just want to know if there's any discoloration, how severe, and do you consider it ugly. Wanna see the dyno sheets of course also, we kid about the numbers cause it is highly unlikely any pipe setup will get you 120hp out of the box on an otherwise stock machine. The other alternatives seem ugly in comparison with the D&D at least for me. If the hp is there and I get to believe mine are just a plain mistake I'll switch to D&D unless ST does something more to my liking. I'll probably just keep my JM setup. I'm just trying to be open minded. Really like the Joker's but since objectivity is important I'll critizise my own decisions until my very end and will very much appreciate any kind of feedback.

ok i will get you the pics and some numbers when i get back next weekend. I know they were not at 120 hp for sure but i will let you know what it was and everything they did

I just purchased and installed the D&D full system. In the box you get a note that says the SE Filter and Stage 1 download is mandatory. I did the installation myself and I am extremely pleased with the look, sound, and performance. I have not dynoed the bike as of yet but did talk to the tech at D&D because the numbers just did not appear correct. I was told that yes those numbers were correct, but interestingly enough there was a mention somewhere on their site about "corrected HP". I inquired about this and was basically told that their dyno numbers are more accurate than most others that use the Dynojet 250. He also said there Dyno numbers are comparable to what you would see reported in different major motorcyle reviews. Now I don't know a thing about the differences in Dyno's so I certainly have no comment. My purchase decision was based on sound, performance, and looks. I was more interested in a better sound than better performance but did not want to loose HP and that is why I did not buy the Rineharts. They were my first choice, but I did not get good feedback from various sources and was almost certain I would loose HP.

Once I decide on the PCIII or RT I will probably have it dynoed. I will post the numbers if and when I do, I can say that I am completely happy with the sound, performance and look of these pipes compared to stock. I considered v-modding the stock exhaust but was looking for an exhaust the would be further away from the rear pegs and also expose the swingarm.


Ron

I notice that they say show and go chrome, they should specify show and go is a local chromer here.

Ron

Had any chance to ride much with them? Did you get to do the SE Filter and Stage 1 download?

See, those were my first choice from the start. Like you with the Rineharts I steered away from D&D's because of negative feedback. But most of all wanted to try something new. Saw the Joker's and OMG do I like. Mine do everything great, the only gripe is they turned yellow and not just a little yellow like the one on the ads. E-mailed them about and possibility of heat shields (THAT would make them perfect for me) but seems like it won't happen. I'm keeping them Joker cause I like but still my first love were these D&D you guys have and think they do look awesome, sound great, and most of all would like to see high hp numbers with them.

Good that you got D&D instead of Rineharts. Now you could dyno (please) and let me know. I think I am one of the few here that truly appreciates D&D even if the numbers seem a bit high, not necessarily a bad thing.

:lamer:

Hey! Sorry JM, just had some Mother's brought in and it'll rub off. They'll still show some discoloration when I' done, it was severe, just needed elbow grease. We need a smilie slapping oneself just for me.

Eh! Just to keep on topic let me write D&D. There!

Once I decide on the PCIII or RT I will probably have it dynoed.

Ron[/QUOTE]


how much are the PCIII or RT and where do you get the PCIII?
Do they do the same thing.. It seems a lot of people here have the PCIII?
:kaz:

I do not know exactly the prices but the RT :cool: is more expensive. The diference will not leave you broke, that's for sure. The PCIII will get the signals from the ECM and convert them to whatever you have programmed. It will force whatever you want programmed out of the ECM. The RT actually programs the ECM. I guess a faster communication between the ECM and what actually happens with the motorcycle is realized since it does not need to interface with anythig elsse. Moreover, the RT will allow much more diverse control over the system than the PCIII, not just AFR's. The RT also has a datalogging feature wich would allow a laptop computer owner to tune on his own. You will be able to calculate aprox hp, 0-60 and 1/4 mile times just for fun and these seem reproducible enough so that you can compare differences in what was done to the bike or riding technique changes so you can improve upon yourself instead of at the track where you'll have to wait and wait just for a pass. Some don't like the complexity of the RT but more efficiency is gained with it if well tuned. Benefits of the PCIII are simplicity, everyone can find a tuner for it, and it's less expensive.

The two times I've used the datalogging it's been fun for me. If the wife doesn't get jealous your relationship with the bike will improve :laugh: . To me it's more of a learning process and usually learning and fun don't mix much, do they?

Get the tuner :2cents: !

thanks for the info

Ron

Had any chance to ride much with them?

Due to weather, I have only ridden twice, very short runs, since installing them. My gut feeling is that from 0-6k RPM not much difference other than that beautiful sound, but after 6K, I could feel a noticeable difference in power. As per the dyno, it is hard for me to justify doing it without the RT or PCIII because I would want it tuned for optimum perf.

Ron

Ron the problem is in the php script that the forum runs, it seems that php has a 2mb limit set, after some playing I now have the apache server so that it will see the file and not give the dns error but it may take some doing to find the clause in the php script that is limiting the upload size. At any rate here is the movie.

http://www.v-rodforums.com/movies/d-d-2-1.mpg

Just to update you I did exchange email with David Rash yesterday about his full system but no real answers yet, my coworker assured me that David was a straight up guy and that he had his own dyno and always posted real numbers. So my question to David was he able to duplicate the test on another bike or just the single test mule? The numbers he posted look the same as what okie posted IMHO.

Here was the response that I got back from D&D today.

Mr. Millender,

Our testing was done on two V-Rods aquired from Texas H-D. The SE Race Tuner has also been used to give roughly the same results as the SE Stage 1 flash. We use bikes from the local dealers. Many customers have repeated the same results and are quite happy with our system. Each bike is going to be off a little when compared side to side do the variation in factory quality control. You will get the same percentage of increase but if a bike does not start at 104hp you will not get the 120hp. Many people also try to skimp out on the air kit and that is a big mistake. If you have a chance some time you may want to drop by our shop in Ft. Worth at 2923 Edith Lane 76117. I only have the sound bite for the slip-ons and that is on our web site under the dyno tour link. If you decide to come by give me a call at 817-834-0996 so I can be sure to be available on that day. Have a great day.

Donny E

Here was the response that I got back from D&D today.

Mr. Millender,

Our testing was done on two V-Rods aquired from Texas H-D. The SE Race Tuner has also been used to give roughly the same results as the SE Stage 1 flash. We use bikes from the local dealers. Many customers have repeated the same results and are quite happy with our system. Each bike is going to be off a little when compared side to side do the variation in factory quality control. You will get the same percentage of increase but if a bike does not start at 104hp you will not get the 120hp. Many people also try to skimp out on the air kit and that is a big mistake. If you have a chance some time you may want to drop by our shop in Ft. Worth at 2923 Edith Lane 76117. I only have the sound bite for the slip-ons and that is on our web site under the dyno tour link. If you decide to come by give me a call at 817-834-0996 so I can be sure to be available on that day. Have a great day.

Donny E


I don't buy it for a second. I've not seen a single V-Rod dyno over about 111 rwhp with just a flash and no individual tuning.


John

all i have on mine is new air filter and they did a map download I dont know what that means can anyone fill me in?? Anyway My HP was 106 and max tourque was 71.6.
Never have been into HP but after being on this forum for a while i really want to increase my power. What would be the best steps to take to get up around 115 hp or so. I bought the d and d slip ons because i liked the stock look and wanted a louder deeper sound. Pleased with that but now want more power. Any advice?
thanks

I agree with John! Just bolted on the Jokers, dumped a map not for them, no tuning and bualah 110.9 rwhp is what I got on a ProFlow dyno.
Pretty close, John!

120hp with just a flash, filter, and pipes seems laughable. I just want anyone to prove me wrong and shut me up. If someone does and I can reproduce it on mine I'll buy him a Race Tuner. I swear. ;)

I'm tuning myself with the RT and feels more powerful now, I'll redyno when I can. Hope to at least get to what ST's do with a similar powerband. Hopefuly get to what Joker claims as their peak hp numbers, which is about 2hp better than ST's. But always assume "claims" will be inflated. I need to find me someone with ST's here with the cojones to do some illegal racing :sinister: .

The best power adder I know of are SuperTrapps and tuned with a PCIIIr on an otherwise stock V-Rod gave Steve 112.4 rwhp on a dynojet dyno. Everyone keeps mentioning the TT but I don't see ANY dyno runs posted on an othrwise stock V-Rod. At least D&D has graphs posted. Does anyone in the whole fricking world has TT's :boobs: installed besides KAZ?

Evidence based anything is what we all need :deal: .

Eh! D&D. I started at 104-105. Whatever it is they say. Their dyno sheets do seem improbable. Lack of faith? YES. Hey, they tell me mine should be doing 125 at the flywheel. Do I believe? Heeeell NO! Evidence would be someone with them racing me (on the street please), anytime, then we swap bikes and do it again until it's clear. It's not the macho thing, you know? Just the most fun I can think of with my clothes on. :twisted:

:boobs: :boobs: :boobs: :boobs: :laugh: :laugh: What do you mean "topless"?

I have an appointment today at 1:30 for a dyno run. I will post the results later today.

Ron Myers
D and D Full System
Stage 1 Download
SE Filter

Ron who is doing the dyno run for you?

Eddie,
I raced my Buddy V-rod Tom with his 114+ rwhp ST Equiped V-rod.No Nitrous just on the Motor and it was Not even Close! :diablo: Don't believe me ask him your self.I'm pretty confident that inless your packing a Really Good Running BB Kit or NOS System .No stock V-rod can beat me Heads up!Now I'm not Tooting my Horn I just have my Drag Race setup Running Really Good except for that Bad Rear Cylinder! :hmm: ;)

The Dyno run is being done at American Eagle HD in Corinth. They are running a special until the end of the month for 48.50. 20.00 off regular price. I have not had it dynoed yet so I don't have a baseline and figured now would be a good time, before I add the RT or PowerCommander.

OK here are the results. Not the result touted by D and D but not too shabby anyway. I realize that different brand dyno's may give different results but this was done on a Dynojet 250. As a side note, the results were the highest for a VROD at this dealership.

Stage 1 Download
SE Air Filter
D and D Full System
Running with the Airbox Cover On

So what do yall think? Are these number decent?

Ron Myers

The raw numbers don't mean a whole lot, especially if these are some of the highest they've seen with a V-Rod. What is telling is the torque curve.

You've got a serious lean condition between 3000 - 4000 that's bringing the entire powerband down. You should have a nice, smooth progression from 3000 with a peak around 7000 that shouldn't fall off this fast. There's a lot of work to do here to get back your low to midrange performance and stop the bike from falling on it's face over 7000. Your stock pipes will perform better than this under 7000 rpm

Your easiest solution would be to put a techlusion on the bike, remove the top (run topless) and spend another hour on the dyno dialing it in. This bike needs more fuel in a serious way!

Sorry :(

I lost HP when I put the D&D slipons - at least using the track as a dyno - I had SE flash and the PC map downloaded - I played with the tables and got it back to starting point - but D&D lost credibility with me - I had many phone conversations with them and although they are very polite they never addressed the issue. I sent them my maps also - they talked a good game but their walk was short of their claims. Good sounding pipes - I think that they can be tuned to be similar to stock or SEs but they are not the power gain that they claim - at least that was my conclusion.

I would be interested in seeing any non "D&D" dynoed setup that is North of 115 on a dynojet - let alone 120HP - sorry for the skeptisim but my conclusion cost me both time and money - If anyone is interested I can look for my old Map that seemed to put it back in play.
Kevin

The raw numbers don't mean a whole lot, especially if these are some of the highest they've seen with a V-Rod. What is telling is the torque curve.

You've got a serious lean condition between 3000 - 4000 that's bringing the entire powerband down. You should have a nice, smooth progression from 3000 with a peak around 7000 that shouldn't fall off this fast. There's a lot of work to do here to get back your low to midrange performance and stop the bike from falling on it's face over 7000. Your stock pipes will perform better than this under 7000 rpm

Your easiest solution would be to put a techlusion on the bike, remove the top (run topless) and spend another hour on the dyno dialing it in. This bike needs more fuel in a serious way!

Sorry :(

Thanks MJW
That is why I posted the results, because I need to hear from the group. Regarding running topless, would it not magnify the lean condition? The tech that did the dyno did mention that drop off as a lean condition as well. What concerns me however is that is the RPM range I spend most of my time while cruising. Is it correct to assume that this lean condition at that RPM range will exist at all speeds and not just under the quick and heavy load of the DYNO? If so I am thinking I really need to get this checked out.

Ron

Mark is right on with what he said!Get a Teclusion ,Dump the Top,get a Tune and Watch Out! :diablo:

Topless will increase lean condition - Techlusion, PC or RT needed to correct. And you should ask to see the AF Ratio chart from the dyno - I am tuned around 12.8 to 1 as I recall -
KSP

Will the Techlusion offer the same degree of tuning as would the RT or PCIII? And what is your primary reason for recommending it over the RT or PCIII?

Thanks
Ron

You turn a a little screw thingy more or less! ;)

Will the Techlusion offer the same degree of tuning as would the RT or PCIII? And what is your primary reason for recommending it over the RT or PCIII?

Thanks
Ron
Ron,

No, the techlusion won't offer the same amout of flexibility BUT, you already have the SE download so your timing curve has been cleaned up (the EPA garbage is gone). What your bike needs is more fuel and the techlusion is the easiest and cheapest way to get that.

You are right, going topless will make the lean condition worse, don't do that until you get something (Techlusion, PCIII, RT) to correct the lean condition.

Give me that bike, a techlusion and 1 hour on the dyno and you'll be shocked at the results :diablo:

KSP, I'm quite skeptical about the AFR traces I've seen off some of the dynojets (or any other inertial dyno). So far I've talked to 3 tuners (2 dynojet and 1 factory one)and 1 exhaust gas analyzer company and all of them have said that on a sweep test (what an intertial dyno does) the 4 gas EGA's can't keep up. They need multiple samples at a given rpm to settle down and give a good reading. A straight AFR tester (not a true 4 gas analyzer) can give you a ballpark based on output voltage, but it's far from a true AFR reading. Better than nothing I guess but to nail the number you need a brake dyno that can do a step test (hold rpms at defined steps long enough to get a stable reading). A dynojet 200i or 250i has a brake and can give you these numbers. In fact, to correctly map an EFI bike you MUST have a brake dyno. Remember, the dynojets and every other inertial dyno were designed to tune carburated bikes.

Would those lean spots show up on data mode with a Race Tuner?
110hp seems more real world nontuned. Are the D&D equal length?
If so, maybe equal length velocity stacks will help. Mine arrives in one or two days. I'll see if there is at least a difference that can be felt in perf.

MJW - My tuner actually uses a Factory Pro Eddy current dyno for tuning - he swears by them - we use it to baseline VE tables - then overlay the desired fuel ratio map - and confirm HP and data (knock sensor feedback to verify setup. I have never used one of the Dynojet setups to compare results.
KSP

MJW - My tuner actually uses a Factory Pro Eddy current dyno for tuning - he swears by them - we use it to baseline VE tables - then overlay the desired fuel ratio map - and confirm HP and data (knock sensor feedback to verify setup. I have never used one of the Dynojet setups to compare results.
KSP
Perfect, now all I need to do is bring the bike up to PA :( The only Factory One dyno here is run by a shop that does sport bikes and doesn't have a decent room setup. My experience with him was something less that ideal ;) All he wanted to do was full power step tests and his 4 gas analyzer was reading 1.9 CO even after I added fuel to the map. In fact, I'd add fuel and his 4 gas would say nothing changed. He couldn't even convert the 4 gas reading to an AFR! He also miscalculated the RPM ratio so the 9000 rpm test would slam the rev limiter and he wouldn't take the time to reset the calibration. Even with that I still was able to get enough info to clean up the SE map for my combination. (I've tweaked it further after a quick run on a dynojet.)

Would those lean spots show up on data mode with a Race Tuner?
110hp seems more real world nontuned. Are the D&D equal length?
If so, maybe equal length velocity stacks will help. Mine arrives in one or two days. I'll see if there is at least a difference that can be felt in perf.
No, the data mode won't give you any feedback information other than the Ion Sensor (derived from seeing the variable "timing retard %" being set). The data mode is good for setting timing and reading the environmental sensors but it's pretty useless for AFR.

Ron,

No, the techlusion won't offer the same amout of flexibility BUT, you already have the SE download so your timing curve has been cleaned up (the EPA garbage is gone). What your bike needs is more fuel and the techlusion is the easiest and cheapest way to get that.



I found a PCIII Tuner in Dallas who has quoted me 275 for the PCIII + 200.00 to dyno and create a custom map. The company is Sabin Performance and he was able to show me maps from a couple of other VRODs that he has done. I am just wondering if it makes sense to spend a few extra dollars on the PCIII with someone that can tune it and has a Dyno as opposed to saving a few bucks on the Techlusion only to spend it on tuning time unless I can find someone in the area that has tuned with the Techlusion.

So my question is , do you think you could get the same results with the PCIII and 1 hour on the dyno as you could with the Techlusion.

Thanks
Ron Myers

I am stuck with the PC now until my tuner gets sent to school for the RT.I have a feeling that the dealer will be sending him this year.Once they are out campaigning there drag bikes and see everyone racing is using the RT.
If you feel more confident in Sabin then go for it.If that is what is available in your area then go for it.The RT will extract the last once of HP.

No, the data mode won't give you any feedback information other than the Ion Sensor (derived from seeing the variable "timing retard %" being set). The data mode is good for setting timing and reading the environmental sensors but it's pretty useless for AFR.
What I mean is, do you think that particular lean condition drop in power at aprox 3100rpm if he had a RT with data mode would have activated the ion sensor and retarded timing so you see it on the graph strip at the bottom of the screen when analysing? Then you could do something about it. Richen it up a few steps, then if it doesn't go away advance timing a bit then retest and see if it worked and so on. If it would show then you did not need the dyno to have noted the condition in the first place. You just have a bike with the RT do some data logging and fix it a bit since it gives you the rpms and MAP load data. Do the most off the dyno then take it there, strap it on and dyno with the analyser up it's butt while datalogging, reconcile the data from both. I think something like that would take a lot of the guesswork and dyno time off. I mean handling the rough spots yourself then fine tune on the dyno may make it a less stressful session. Of course this is me imagining things, planning if you will.

You're exactly right :thumb:, I just didn't want people thinking the AFR readings in the datalog were actuals. The tool is powerful if used as intended.

I need help with pipes---I don't want to loose hsp or gain alot---I mostly want sound.
What do you suggest? I had ruled out se, samson, and was contemplating D&D. Now confused.

I need help with pipes---I don't want to loose hsp or gain alot---I mostly want sound.
What do you suggest? I had ruled out se, samson, and was contemplating D&D. Now confused.

Best bang for the buck is V-Mods, hands down ($150.00). You will pick up a fair amount of HP and they sound fantastic.

http://www.v-mod.com/shop/viewProductDetails.asp?CID=104,114&PID=949

http://www.fototime.com/BCA492F6E81AD12/orig.jpg



John

John is right.

BUT! If 700 bucks is not a problem get Jokers. I have to reccomend since so far a great experience. If loud is a problem get something else. Idle and part throttle is cool but your right ear will bleed with the little helmets when you get on it hard for prolongued periods of time.

If you really like the stock look then the V-Mods are unbeatable. It is difficult to justify most any change at all when compared to V-Mods given the bang for the buck or dollar per hp advantage. Not to mention the ease of everything. You'll find maps for anything out there and you'll be riding in no time. I'm not much of a mechanic but I could do the V-Mods and Race Tuner in a couple of hours probably. Then "steal" Mark's map. You need an AF and take the top off.

Scott, was going to do the V-mods until I got the deal on the D&Ds. In fact, there is a thread here on how to do your own, but to do it right you will need some decent tools. Steve at V-mod has package deals with the mods, power commander, and filter. Good luck. I have been reading and researching for a year... there is a lot of good info to be had here from all of these guys.
Greg