I am getting retuned tomorrow. Hopefully I'll have something to share with you other FORCE pipers. Last time they just dumped a drag bike map in which was great from 7 to 10,000 rpm but not for overall riding. I'm driving across state to " the best " wish me luck.

The weather better be better than today. here in dallas its a frog drowner, and heading your way.

OKie,

Keep us posted. I have been running the shorties with map 025 and the SE Double Barrel flash. It runs good but I would feel better having a map that was finely tuned.

Weather not a problem I'm trailering.
TBAG809, I'm running the race tuner. I've heard the maps can not be converted to the power commander.

OKIE.

Who are you referring to as "the best"? I live between Baton Rouge and New Orleans.

OKIE & TBAG,

How do you like your Force shorties? I've been looking for something that won't scrape on the twisties, but will still give me a performance boost. I've already scraped the hell out of the stock pipes.

Originally posted by TheBruceMan
OKIE & TBAG,

How do you like your Force shorties? I've been looking for something that won't scrape on the twisties, but will still give me a performance boost. I've already scraped the hell out of the stock pipes.


I love my Force pipes but they are so friggin loud! Its nice to be heard but the ear plug factor is wearing me down.

Maybe I`ll sell you mine in a few months...:sinister:

As for clearance they are pretty good. I`ve never scraped them but then again I`m not much of an aggressive rider.

Well, I just bought a set of the Force pipes off of e-bay, so hopefully Okie's tunning will produce a map I can use. I'm going to order my Race Tuner this week.

Originally posted by polizzio
OKIE.

Who are you referring to as "the best"? I live between Baton Rouge and New Orleans.

Skin at Cajun Harley. He was referred to me by my mechanic Rick.
Rick is in the process of setting up his own shop (with dyno) in Shreveport. Rick has been the top tuner in the area for a while but was stuck behind a desk as the stealers service manager. He won't be up and running till March and he was afraid my map was causing damage. It was running way too rich while cruising getting way too much fuel in the oil. He said it needed imediate attention and said Skin was the only one he would recommend.

What a trip. Never haul a high top enclosed trailer during a downpour terd floater with Micky Thompson street slicks on your truck. Anyway, drove down friday night, got there about two. Some loud ass kids checked in next to me about three. I thought I had talked to Skin the day before and made an appointment with him. He had no idea who I was. Turns out I had talked to Skinner the gm. Oh well, standing by the bike with the key hanging out Skin asks me if I brought my key. UUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHH huh? The key I HAVE to have to tune your bike. You mean that little wiring harness I got in the kit? Yep. Damn.
Any way, had a buddy going down today and he's taking it. So far nothings gone right but a well tuned bike will make it all worthwhile.

Just got off the phone with Skin. He said the first run made 122hp but it needs serious tuning in the mid range. I'll TRY to post the sheets when I get them.

Okie, what are you running to get 122 HP...is that at the rear wheel?

thanks

Yes that is a dyno run at the rear wheel. The things stock with Force pipes and high flow filter and race tuner. It had a drag bike map dumped in it that made it awsome at 7 to 10 grand but putting around it ran like duke. Skin has to start from scratch because shreveport harley would not give him the drag map.

122 HP Okie? That's bitchin'! I'm lookin' forward to seeing what your map looks like!

What kind of dyno? Jesus! 122hp stock with just the pipes and filter :eek: . If it is reproducible on another dyno I'm getting Force pipes STAT even if I don't dig the look of the shorties they'll grow on me, I'll use earplugs. I didn't wanna bother everybody since they say so very loud but at that kind of power how can I refuse?

Here's a graph of what Steve got out of them but I don't know if a PCIIIr or RT was used.

Do not forget that there is always a difference one dyno to the next - one day to the next - one type of dyno to the next. Mine produces 102HP dyno tuned - about 12 over stock on a Factory pro eddy dyno - Which the tuners all rave about - but the numbers look weak compared to the happier Dynojet setups. Of course I get weekly feedback at the track - trap speed tells a story - 114.21 with 860 lbs bike and rider as best speed to date. With over 250 passes I can track improvements of various setups. Of course monitoring other variables such as launching, shifting and atmospheric conditions also come into play. The greatest value that I found with the Dyno is the ability to measure fuel/air ratio - although there is potentially some impact of speed - although all of the racers that I know of set it on a dyno and that is it. No real track adjustments. One last observation from the track - the VRod does not track to atmospheric changes according to the computer programs - and I can not explain that - I have run from .98 to 1.06 SAE HP correction factors and my experience is that it changes about half as much as the computers predict - for adjusted tiimes. What that translates on the dyno or track is that if you are in really bad air the actual performance improvement compared to the predicted improvement will be understated. This holds true going from one track to another - less impact than predicted - I ran at 5 tracks this year - mine is notorious bad air track - and went to the good air tracks and again much less improvement than computer predicted. Lucy to pick up more than .2 or so from best to worse - hot and humid to cool and dry. Tail/Head winds - that is another story altogether...
Kevin

By the way - the setup that I use has 12.8 AF ratio as well as ignition advance - with each cylinder map baselined and then overall fuel/air map set to desired ratio with the race tuner. It has been optimized for performance vs. milage etc....

122 HP Okie? That's bitchin'! I'm lookin' forward to seeing what your map looks like!

Me too. The bad thing is after he made that run he had to wipe the map and start over. Shreveport Harley dumped that map in and claims they no longer have it. And theres no way of retreiving info from the race tuner (that sucks).Skins building his own and said he was back up to 119. Tony at Shreveport did tell me his map was just fuel/air.

Hope he gets that other 3 back.


Skin did say these pipes suck at midrange. I told him do the best he can.

What kind of dyno? Jesus! 122hp stock with just the pipes and filter :eek: . If it is reproducible on another dyno I'm getting Force pipes STAT even if I don't dig the look of the shorties they'll grow on me, I'll use earplugs. I didn't wanna bother everybody since they say so very loud but at that kind of power how can I refuse?

Here's a graph of what Steve got out of them but I don't know if a PCIIIr or RT was used.

It's a Dynojet. I'm running Force longs maybe the added length makes a difference? I like the looks better also. The noise doesn't bother me, added length? I do where a full face also.
http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2096&stc=1

Awesome!
Longs do look much better to me also.

Kevin, did you "say" 102hp?

Yes that is a dyno run at the rear wheel. The things stock with Force pipes and high flow filter and race tuner. It had a drag bike map dumped in it that made it awsome at 7 to 10 grand but putting around it ran like duke. Skin has to start from scratch because shreveport harley would not give him the drag map.

10K redline?????? Let's see the graphs because I don't buy those numbers with just Force Pipes. Sorry, but no one else is seeing numbers this high and there's some pretty good tuners out there.

BTW Kevin, take that 102 hp Factory Pro number and multiply it by 1.15, that's what a DynoJet 200/250 will read. (I checked it and it's withing 0.1hp) = 117.3 hp. Very nice, best I saw was 101hp on the Factory Pro.

10K redline?????? Let's see the graphs because I don't buy those numbers with just Force Pipes. Sorry, but no one else is seeing numbers this high and there's some pretty good tuners out there.

BTW Kevin, take that 102 hp Factory Pro number and multiply it by 1.15, that's what a DynoJet 200/250 will read. (I check it and it's withing 0.1hp) = 117.3 hp. Very nice, best I saw was 101hp on the Factory Pro.

I have no reason to lie. As soon as I get the sheets they will be posted. I'm just sharing the info I'm getting. Is my tuner lieing? I don't see why he would.
The rev limiter was set at over 11 grand on the first map.

I have no reason to lie. As soon as I get the sheets they will be posted. I'm just sharing the info I'm getting. Is my tuner lieing? I don't see why he would.

Hold On, I guess I didn't say what I was thinking.....

I'm not saying anyone's lying just that there has to be more to this story than has been presented so far since no one else in the whole v-rod community has seen these kind of numbers with any pipe combo on a regular basis, certainly not with any 2 into 2 pipe.

It's probably something as simple as dyno calibration or SAE correction factors being out of spec.

Again, I'm not calling anyone a lier, just looking for more information. Who knows, you may have found the perfect combination of parts and tuner.

I did lie. I just got off the phone with Skin. It was 121 and he's faxing the sheet within the hour. It will probably take me about that to scan it and post it (hope not).
He was said he thought his machine may have been off after this run but it checked out fine.
Maybe I'm just lucky . :460:

Cool, that's great! :thumb

I'm just dying to see this dyno sheet. Power @ 10K? Not with stock cams, no way. The V-Rod starts losing HP after about 8500 rpm.



John

[QUOTE=Ketsugo]I'm just dying to see this dyno sheet. Power @ 10K? Not with stock cams, no way. The V-Rod starts losing HP after about 8500 rpm.

That 7 to 10 k was just me trying to describe how the bike ran. Not dyno numbers.

From OKIE

10K redline?????? Let's see the graphs because I don't buy those numbers with just Force Pipes. Sorry, but no one else is seeing numbers this high and there's some pretty good tuners out there.

BTW Kevin, take that 102 hp Factory Pro number and multiply it by 1.15, that's what a DynoJet 200/250 will read. (I checked it and it's withing 0.1hp) = 117.3 hp. Very nice, best I saw was 101hp on the Factory Pro.

This is the shreveport map run. Skin said it was so lean at 4k it should have burned a hole in the piston.

Thanks Max, Should have looked but I was busy trying to figure out a way.

[QUOTE=eduarprmd]What kind of dyno? QUOTE]

Dynojet 250 with load control and oxygen sniffer

Yep, you're lucky you don't have a hole in the piston. Based on the power it looks like the system was really backing down the timing too. The numbers look strong, I would be real interested to see the map's fuel and timing variables. I'd also be real interested to see another bike with a chart from another dyno make a pass on this dyno because the numbers don't jive with any dynos here in FL.

OKIE,
Please ask your tuner what the numbers on the other V-Rods he's dynoed. As Mark says, the numbers are out of line with everything else out there. I would also be curious to know when the dyno was last calibrated.



John

He said the best he's had was 114 before. He said he thinks I have a bore kit. But I don't.

Well I'm dumbfounded (comments from the peanut gallery aren't necessary). I don't know what to say but congrats! :)



John

Awesome!
Longs do look much better to me also.
Heres a better look.

I need to find a dyno somewhere! I wonder what kinda numbers I`d have. If I was pulling numbers like that with my Force shorties and PC3r I`ll start wearing earplugs! :diablo: :sinister:

Man, I hope I can get numbers like that! I'm going to try and take my bike down this week to get a baseline dyno with it stock, and then get it tuned the following week with the Force pipes and the filter. I'll post soon as I have the dyno print outs.

ChopperSteve made 108 rwhp with Force pipes.


John

Everyone is saying congrats because they can't believe it. THAT you can believe. It doesn't mean it's not true. I'm having a hard time with these numbers too and I don't think you are a liar. It's as you say, you are getting the info out as you get it. You have to admit that given what everyone else here knows about V-Rods those are high numbers for a stock setup. For example, it's been known that ST make some of the highest numbers, Kaz had them ST's and after "hundreds" of runs and more stuff in it than yours he made 120's. So! Keep an open mind as we all should also. If you get to the point where you find out it was an error , please tell also, there's nothing wrong with that. And listen, this is just so we all learn. If true and not a dyno error get it to the track and run it just to shut everyone up. Get it to another dyno after tuned and compare hp #'s. Let us know. T-Bag go get yours to a dyno ASAP, let us know.

I see OKIE has high hp # with a jagged curve meaning possibly knock sensor acting on it and this motorcycle with just af and exhaust should not need more gas making such high hp #'s. Am I right? I'd like to see the RT file not just for the AFR's even if I really know shit about tuning.

Are you the first owner? Can you smoke the rear with just throttle application in first or second gear at 5-7k rpm coming from a steady pace then whacking it open? You finally tuning with Skin guy or Shreveport? I hope it's true cause I'm getting Force pipes at once just to try. I lived in Shreveport for some time and hope it and Bossier are still growing.

If it turns out that you are getting such good numbers reliably maybe we'll need an autopsy.

You have a RT. Datalog with it and it should tell you if and when knock sensors activate, then you compare with the hp graph you have. If you tune'em out you'll end up with higher hp or at least with a smoother graph making it pull harder most of the time, thus a faster, better riding, not to mention a more efficient and reliable motorcycle.

I know, its higher than normal #s. I think its the one TWENTY mark thats freaking eveyone out. Yet 117 is perfectly acceptable.

I will have everything checked out in March on a brand new dyno setup here in Shreveport.

Man, I hope I can get numbers like that! I'm going to try and take my bike down this week to get a baseline dyno with it stock, and then get it tuned the following week with the Force pipes and the filter. I'll post soon as I have the dyno print outs.

These guys are giving me doubts. Let me double check before you go out spending money on these pipes.

OKIE,
Your Air Box?What have you done to it?Stock,Topless,Modded?I have spent more time on the dyno then most and don't feel your numbers are accurate for what you have No matter what you say.Keep that Tune up and take it to 3 different dyno's for just a rwhp run.If it breaks 120 in to of the 3 I will be towing my bike personally to you incredible tuners!This 5 rwhp more then the closes stock setup I have heard.My 120+rwhp runs were with oxygenated gas there's NO FU(KING WAY you did that with that setup on pump gas! :bs:

OKIE,
Your Air Box?What have you done to it?Stock,Topless,Modded?I have spent more time on the dyno then most and don't feel your numbers are accurate for what you have No matter what you say.Keep that Tune up and take it to 3 different dyno's for just a rwhp run.If it breaks 120 in to of the 3 I will be towing my bike personally to you incredible tuners!This 5 rwhp more then the closes stock setup I have heard.My 120+rwhp runs were with oxygenated gas there's NO FU(KING WAY you did that with that setup on pump gas! :bs:

I ran topless. I don't know what he's doing. He may be running it naked (no filter). I will have all this checked on another dyno. I'll go to ten of em if you would like to finance it rich boy.

OK There must be something going on here. You all can't be wrong. Even the tuner can't believe it. The only explaination he can figure is a bore kit. I am not the original owner but he is a friend of mine and there is no bore kit. Skin is adiment about his equipment being calibrated. So I'm stumped also. But I promise you I will never do anything to add confusion to our forum.

I know, its higher than normal #s. I think its the one TWENTY mark thats freaking eveyone out. Yet 117 is perfectly acceptable.

True! Get it checked, I bet you'll be happy with the results anyway. Hope it's better than 120.

Okie,
Now why would you want to go there?Believe me I have held back out of respect for the Forum and Max.I'm not trying to Flame you I just have messed around with a couple of these bikes to know better when something does not add up!Being Rich or Poor,Black or White,or Male and Female has Nothing to do with this.Respect has to be Earned as my Daddy used to Say! ;)

Well, seems he lost a little hp but gained a little torque. The hole is much smaller at 4 to 5k and the lean spot is gone. The final bill is 440 plus tax. Should I be happy?
http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2315&stc=1
http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2314&stc=1

Well, seems he lost a little hp but gained a little torque. The hole is much smaller at 4 to 5k and the lean spot is gone. The final bill is 440 plus tax. Should I be happy?
http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2315&stc=1
http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2314&stc=1

Those are some nice numbers. I`d be happy :cheers:

Many years ago, my brother ran a B/G dragster. This was a small block Chevy, 301 inches with a 4:71 supercharger. The rail did consistant low 9's and was flawless in keeping to that pace over the few seasons he ran it. This was in the mid-60's.

However, only once did he break the 9 barrier, and hit a 8.39 ET for the 1/4 mile. This is almost a second off consistant times turned in as 9.01 to 9.20's is where this rail lived.

The weather conditions that night were ideal for this to happen, as that is the only thing I remember as to why anyone could explain why the rail performed the way it did.

My thought is that certain conditions will allow results to happen that may not normally occur with engines. Weather conditions being a prime example of having a cause/effect on results and perhaps that this is one of those reasons why results that Okies bike with his tuner occured.

I do know LA can be really hot and humid, but at other times, it can be downright cold and offer perfect opportunities to pull conditions together to allow the motor to do things it may not normally do.

Maybe the conditions were the reason for a higher than norm HP pull off the dyno, who knows.

Hey Okie, any chance I can get a copy of your race tuner file? I just got my Force pipes this week and I'm going to throw them on this weekend. I just need something that I can dump in the bike that will get me to the dealer so they can tune it. Your numbers look great! $440 doesn't sound too bad. How many hours did it take him to get it dialed in?

Well, the only noticeable difference was at the gas pump (not even 30 on the highway) and spit and sputtered until it warmed up good. It's now at Shreveport Harley being tuned. Wish me luck I sure could use some.

Your tuner sounds like he is just after big#'s.Make sure the new tuner does the low and midranges.My first tuner just tuned it for max hp.The bike ran better before I took it to the dealer.That was with KN filter,no top and the ST's.I got fed up with their trying to BSing me.So,I found a different tuner that has gone to school for the power commander.He did a real good job,no popping,surging,but 1 flat spot.Thats my fault because 'I' ran out of time for him to fix.
The only time I'm going to the old dealer is for the 2500+5000k free oil changes.And I'll have my new one do the servicing.

Just got the bike back from Shreveport Harley. (The cajun harley 500$ tune sucked) It's grrreat! Their dyno #s are a little lower, but no crater like before. Only charged 2 hrs. labor. I recomend Tony for all you east Texas folks. What a difference.

http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3534&stc=1

My bikes back at the tuner for gas in the oil. It is running great. He called today and said the afr looked good but he could lean it out a little down low.
Also while it's there I wouldn't mind a little more at the top. When it made 121hp on that first run at Cajun Harley the AFR was 13.5@8.5K then the final tune was 118hp with the AFR 13.0@8.5K. Then Shreveport Harley tuned it. 116hp with the AFR 12.5@ 8.5K. The leaner the better. but what's TOO lean?
Any comments please anybody.
MJW930?

There's 2 schools of tuning, one is lean it out until you lose power then back off half a turn (old phrase) or the modern way, datalog the runs and lean it out until you get detonation (indicated by ignition retard). Either way works but the datalog gives me more peace of mind.

Heck, the way we used to jet the race boats was pretty primitive but it worked. If at WOT you could move the throttle and not sense any change in forward velocity then it's too rich. Drop down a jet size until coming off WOT causes an instant drop in speed. Then do a proper plug test to make sure you're not too lean or running too much timing. Never hand grenaded a motor and the last 461 (454 / 20 over) I had made 575 hp @ 6350 :D

I have always used the oposit approach - fatten it until you begin to lose power (top end speed at strip) I prefer a little rich to lean. Mine is tuned to 12.8 to 1 at WOT. My earlier experimenting gave me best results (at speed - not dyno) on the richer side.
Kevin

That's the other end of the optimum range and I agree, I'd rather error on that side of the curve than the lean side ;) Dialing it in would be to find the spot in the rich side where it loses power then find the spot on the lean side that it loses power then set it to the middle.

Okie, Unless you're trying to win a shootout I'd leave it rich on the top. A little insurance is worth the 5 hp IMHO. One thing I found is that different conditions make a world of difference. I tuned my bike lean on a cool evening then put it on a dynojet in the middle of the afternoon and watched the power drop off @ 7500 rpm as the knock sensor took 2 degrees of ignition out :( I added that fuel back and the bike works well at all temps.

Cajun Harley gave me a 50% refund on that 500$ tune job that got wiped. Somethings better than nothing.

Cajun Harley gave me a 50% refund on that 500$ tune job that got wiped. Somethings better than nothing.

Alright good for you. :thumb:

I finally took my bike down to Mitchell’s H-D in Modesto a few weeks ago to get the AF re-mapped for the new pipes. Prior to installing the pipes, I ran the bike down and had them pull a dyno run 100% stock so I would have a baseline to work with. Stock the bike was at 107.6 HP. After installing the pipes, changing the air filter to the K&N, and losing the top, I'm now getting 112.4 HP. Jack, the tuner over at Mitchell’s called me the day after I dropped the bike off and said that he didn't think the pipes were going to increase HP. At the time he recommended going with V-Mods instead. He thought there wouldn't be the backpressure that the exhaust system requires. After seeing Okie’s results, and the fact I already installed the pipes, I told him to re-map the bike as best he could. Mitchell’s charges a flat rate of $300 no matter how long it takes them (seems fair to me). Anyway, as you can see, I was able to squeeze a little more HP out of the bike. My question, does the stock headers create the required backpressure at the 2-1 point of connection? Because the Force pipes are basically wide open, that’s why the tuner thought they wouldn’t work. I had the bike out this weekend, and I’m lovin’ it! Feels like it’s running real strong. It’s louder than all get out, but what the hell, if it’s too loud, you’re too old, right? I’ll try to attach my dyno graphs for further discussion.